Technical 899 MOT fail

[danielb]

Hi the cinq has just failed and It's too much to type out :bang:.
The rear brakes have just had new shoes and cables as there was no handbrake but that seems to have just pushed the problem to the normal brakes, but its the emissions that are a bit more worrying . It does idle unevenly (like it is occasionally missing) and it sometimes has a bit of a flat spot when accelerating.



Any help would be appreciated,
Dan

 

[The Black Box]

For the rear brakes you did remove the wear lip on the drums and pull the shoes so that the drum fits tightly over that would be my first look. Emissions when did it last have a good service and an Italian tune up any management light on (looks like a hose) If you need it pm me I've got a stock battery clamp sitting here you can have for postage.

 

[danielb]

For the rear brakes you did remove the wear lip on the drums and pull the shoes so that the drum fits tightly over that would be my first look.

Thanks for the reply, the drums were only replaced recently so haven't actually had chance to build up a lip and yeah I pulled the shoes out until they were dragging slightly and then let them off a little.

Emissions when did it last have a good service and an Italian tune up any management light on (looks like a hose

The management light used to be on and off but it stopped a while ago, fixed ... No just the bulb, plugged the laptop in today and it said the lambda sensor had failed. I swapped it with one that I had laying about (from a mk2 Punto I think)and it cleared the error from the diagnostics. It now runs a lot smoother than it has done in a while but with an idle of 1500-2000 rpm . It's the girlfriends dad's car so its always driven slowly and carefully.

Thanks again,
Dan

 

[Pep0]

Hi Dan

your answers are not clear enough sorry:

before the mot you
stripped both drums cleaned everything
freed off both manual adjusters so they would spin free
filed off both drum edges
reassembled with new shoes
pushed the pedal hard
adjusted the cable so both sides spun freely but started to bind at one notch on lever
and they still failed? New shoes on working brakes should have margin on pass...

for fronts I file outside edge of disc replace shoes and bed down the brakes with Wellington boot on clear road lots of margin on test...

again did you replace the lambda before or after test? if it is idling at 1500 please check the resistance of the coolant temperature sensor with a multimeter in place

please visually check each rubber pipe for cut with flash light and mirror any of the little hoses can have air leak

is the auto stock or tuned?

is the auto maintained at service intervals properly or run into ground? replace the air filter if stock unless it looks new

sorry

 

[rallycinq]

If its running smoother, thats a good thing, the high idle is a vacuum leak. I'd guess there is a pipe off or split.

Driven sensibly is no use to a cento. Needs to be warmed, all levels checked, then thrashed for a while. Particularly if there has been a missfire.

Cheers

D

 

[danielb]

Sorry for any confusion,
Last week I replaced the rear shoes and handbrake cables. They were replaced as the cable outers had split and allowed the inner cable to rust. The drums were cleaned and there wasn't any lip to start with. I can't remember how we adjusted them but I'll look for the guide we used. I took the car for the MOT today and it failed on all of the above. I plugged the car into the laptop and using startrek-punto it said that the lambda sensor was faulty. The EML wasn't on because the bulb has broken. It used to come on intermittently but then stopped. I replaced the lambda with one I had in the shed and the car ran much smoother but at 1500+ rpm. I hope that is clearer.
Now for the new bits. I found that the pipe from the TB to the breather had split. I have cut the pipe where it split and sealed it with a small piece of copper brake pipe. The idle then settled to around 900rpm but very rough. I removed the plugs and they were all black. Number two had a large build up so I cleaned the plugs and it runs smoother but still rough at idle.
Thanks again,
Dan

 

[rallycinq]

Ok...remove and replace each plug lead in turn, with the engine running, and using insulated pliers.

Report back with which one(s) make no difference to the idle when removed.

Cheers

D

 

[Pep0]

hi Dan

when you take the drums offagain spend 20 mins with a round file per drum removing the non existent lip from the edge of the drum I cut into the edge of the normal service area about 2mms but don't go further
you also need to remove the levers attache'd to the cable and free them so the two parts are free like they were new and then add a really small amount of copperslip grease to the pivot
they will pass mot easily with previous check list mine do

replace pads and file edges of disc...

Id try a replacement plug lead on the plug position that was fouled

the wee car should tick over like clock when it should be ok on emissions but Id replace oil and filter and take it for longoing 60 mph jaunt first

Noel

 

[rallycinq]

Further thought

When were the air and fuel filters last changed?

Cheers

D

 

[David C]

Re the emissions, my little 899 Cinq runs very well, but when it comes to the MOT emissions check it needs a serious thrashing to get the Cat hot. Usually we need to do that while it is on the emissions tester which means you need someone prepared to take the time.

If all they did was run the tests "by-the-book" then mine would fail every time.
Hold it at reasonable high revs for a considerable time and you can see the readings coming down. As soon as the are below the requirement you can GENTLY lower the revs down to the required level (or if you have an extremely cooperative tester, keep the revs high...).

For such a small engine, the Cinq's Cat is quite a long way from the engine, which means the Cat takes longer to get to working temperature. Take a look at similar age Jap cars and you'll see the Cat is almost on the cylinder head!

 

[dr pinkie]

+1

I always thrash the poor thing mercilessly on the way to the MOT , and leave it idling while I wait for the man to finish his cuppa . No emissions fails so far .

 

[danielb]

I've redone the rear brakes and they seem a lot better than before. I'm happy that they should now pass. With 3 clicks I can't pull away and the fronts feel a lot better after a bleed.
Emissions...
I've pulled the leads one at a time and number 2 doesn't make a difference. I've swapped the plugs round, the leads and even the coils but no difference. CCompression results 1-150psi 2-50psi 3-150psi 4-145psi.
After a drop of oil down the plug hole it rose to 75psi.
Thanks again,
Dan

 

[Pep0]

Think you need to have the head off, and inspect before any decisions.

Noel

 

[danielb]

Also if you pick the revs up then it seems to run pretty smooth but at idle there is a lot a vibration and it does sound like its running on 3.
Dan

 

[rallycinq]

wee bit out a valve would be my guess..at higher gas speeds its less noticeable.

Head off time, make sure you don't lose any tappet bits when you take the rocker shaft off.

Cheers

D