General 595 and 500 driven back to back

[OrangeSport]

Car salespeople in Switzerland continue to amaze me how they are happy to let willing customers walk out the door rather than negotiate a sale with slightly less profit and/or risk from a trade-in.

The funny thing is despite it being a supposed hot commodity we came to an agreeable price on the Abarth pretty quick, but they were willing to let me walk away over a quibble on the trade-in.

Interesting way to look at it; the price for the new car and the trade in price as separate things. I always focus on the cost to change. Sometimes the way the numbers work can mean all the benefit comes in one area, but (for example) the reduced purchase price makes up for the low trade in (or the other way round).

It often depends on how they need their books to look.

 

[grimwau]

To put any controversy to end, attached is a photo of the Turismo and one of it's rear springs.

Whilst you were scratching about under there I don't suppose noticed if the coils were protected by a clear silicone sheath?

 

[Verb]

Whilst you were scratching about under there I don't suppose noticed if the coils were protected by a clear silicone sheath?

Yes, I did. Actually, you can see the milky-clear silicone sleeve on the closely spaced coils in the photo if you enlarge it.

I heard they are there for to reduce noise. Was the noise from the closely spaced spring coils clanging together?

 

[sharkrider]

Hi, To OP.. can I ask how fast the changes are (and how smooth) on the auto gearbox? Is there a big delay between gears?I am really interested in the turismo, but after livivng with the perfect shifting, seemless, DSG VAG box, I don't know if I could live with an inferior box.....

 

[bgunn]

I heard they are there for to reduce noise. Was the noise from the closely spaced spring coils clanging together?

The noise of closely spaced coil springs is often more of a creak/cracking sound. The isolators are also usually placed there to stop the spring coils fretting, water getting in and causing rust, and then breaking.

 

[Verb]

Hi, To OP.. can I ask how fast the changes are (and how smooth) on the auto gearbox? Is there a big delay between gears?I am really interested in the turismo, but after livivng with the perfect shifting, seemless, DSG VAG box, I don't know if I could live with an inferior box.....

Clearly Fiat would have preferred to fit it's TCT dual clutch transmission like the one on the MiTo, but apparently there isn't enough space for it and the dualogic transmission isn't robust enough for the Abarth's torquey engine.

Therefore Fiat took the same 5 speed Abarth manual transmission and bolted on an electrohydraulic shift and clutch actuation mechanism to it.

Since it is not a sequential gearbox and only has one clutch, it cannot offer the shifting speed of a DSG/TCT/DCT...

For something that sounds like a hack, it works surprisingly well. I test drove the MTA Competizione again last week and got a bit more used to the MTA. I ended up not hating it as much as before though I still didn't like it.

I prefer manual transmissions, but I'm not a bigot. As I said before, I drove a dual clutch sequential equipped MPV 2 weeks ago (a new car for my wife) and I would have selected the dual clutch had she not insisted on the manual. It was really nice. The upshifts and downshifts were fast and smooth while happening at just the right time. It was really good!

On the Abarth the shift speed felt like about the same speed as a hydraulic automatic transmission, but not as smooth. So, not terribly slow but definitely not instant. For reference, it felt about the same speed as a person would do it when driving in a fairly relaxed manner. The whole time I was driving the MTA I kept thinking "you're doing it wrong! Here, let me do it" as the shift speed and especially the timing didn't meet my expectations. This can partially be mediated by moving into Manual mode and using the flappy paddles behind the steering wheel. When I remembered the manual mode and used it, I was much happier with the results.

What I really hated about the MTA was "pull away" power. With a hydraulic automatic that torque converter really gets you going off a stoplight so you can move over a lane or whatever ahead of the vehicle you were stopped next to. One can accomplish the same thing in a manual. I don't mean a dramatic burn out, but just a little ZIP ahead to get around a vehicle when you find yourself in the wrong lane, stuck behind a slow lorry etc...

I couldn't find a way to get the MTA to let me do those ZIP manuevers or even pull away from stop lights with any kind of urgency. I tried progressively more pedal pressure and I still got the same thing creep...creep....more creep...a little more creep...still creeping....maybe 3kph now...and for a bit and then seemingly normal acceleration.

Maybe MTA owners can speak up and tell me I was doing it wrong. Regardless, for me the MTA is a bit of a hack. Taking a normal manual transmission and bolting on a robot to run it can never work as well or as reliably as a transmission designed from the beginning to be an automatic.

If you or your partner cannot drive a manual, don't want to learn and really want an Abarth then it's your only choice but definitely not a great one.

 

[ahmett]

Clearly Fiat would have preferred to fit it's TCT dual clutch transmission like the one on the MiTo, but apparently there isn't enough space for it and the dualogic transmission isn't robust enough for the Abarth's torquey engine.

Therefore Fiat took the same 5 speed Abarth manual transmission and bolted on an electrohydraulic shift and clutch actuation mechanism to it.

Since it is not a sequential gearbox and only has one clutch, it cannot offer the shifting speed of a DSG/TCT/DCT...

For something that sounds like a hack, it works surprisingly well. I test drove the MTA Competizione again last week and got a bit more used to the MTA. I ended up not hating it as much as before though I still didn't like it.

I prefer manual transmissions, but I'm not a bigot. As I said before, I drove a dual clutch sequential equipped MPV 2 weeks ago (a new car for my wife) and I would have selected the dual clutch had she not insisted on the manual. It was really nice. The upshifts and downshifts were fast and smooth while happening at just the right time. It was really good!

On the Abarth the shift speed felt like about the same speed as a hydraulic automatic transmission, but not as smooth. So, not terribly slow but definitely not instant. For reference, it felt about the same speed as a person would do it when driving in a fairly relaxed manner. The whole time I was driving the MTA I kept thinking "you're doing it wrong! Here, let me do it" as the shift speed and especially the timing didn't meet my expectations. This can partially be mediated by moving into Manual mode and using the flappy paddles behind the steering wheel. When I remembered the manual mode and used it, I was much happier with the results.

What I really hated about the MTA was "pull away" power. With a hydraulic automatic that torque converter really gets you going off a stoplight so you can move over a lane or whatever ahead of the vehicle you were stopped next to. One can accomplish the same thing in a manual. I don't mean a dramatic burn out, but just a little ZIP ahead to get around a vehicle when you find yourself in the wrong lane, stuck behind a slow lorry etc...

I couldn't find a way to get the MTA to let me do those ZIP manuevers or even pull away from stop lights with any kind of urgency. I tried progressively more pedal pressure and I still got the same thing creep...creep....more creep...a little more creep...still creeping....maybe 3kph now...and for a bit and then seemingly normal acceleration.

Maybe MTA owners can speak up and tell me I was doing it wrong. Regardless, for me the MTA is a bit of a hack. Taking a normal manual transmission and bolting on a robot to run it can never work as well or as reliably as a transmission designed from the beginning to be an automatic.

If you or your partner cannot drive a manual, don't want to learn and really want an Abarth then it's your only choice but definitely not a great one.

As a user of a dualogic i know exactly what you mean. Driving it in manual is better; it feels very hesitant in auto mode with sport off especially with the non turbo 1.4 as it has no torque down low! Dual-clutch gearboxes feel much better.

 

[sharkrider]

Clearly Fiat would have preferred to fit it's TCT dual clutch transmission like the one on the MiTo, but apparently there isn't enough space for it and the dualogic transmission isn't robust enough for the Abarth's torquey engine.

Therefore Fiat took the same 5 speed Abarth manual transmission and bolted on an electrohydraulic shift and clutch actuation mechanism to it.

Since it is not a sequential gearbox and only has one clutch, it cannot offer the shifting speed of a DSG/TCT/DCT...

For something that sounds like a hack, it works surprisingly well. I test drove the MTA Competizione again last week and got a bit more used to the MTA. I ended up not hating it as much as before though I still didn't like it.

I prefer manual transmissions, but I'm not a bigot. As I said before, I drove a dual clutch sequential equipped MPV 2 weeks ago (a new car for my wife) and I would have selected the dual clutch had she not insisted on the manual. It was really nice. The upshifts and downshifts were fast and smooth while happening at just the right time. It was really good!

On the Abarth the shift speed felt like about the same speed as a hydraulic automatic transmission, but not as smooth. So, not terribly slow but definitely not instant. For reference, it felt about the same speed as a person would do it when driving in a fairly relaxed manner. The whole time I was driving the MTA I kept thinking "you're doing it wrong! Here, let me do it" as the shift speed and especially the timing didn't meet my expectations. This can partially be mediated by moving into Manual mode and using the flappy paddles behind the steering wheel. When I remembered the manual mode and used it, I was much happier with the results.

What I really hated about the MTA was "pull away" power. With a hydraulic automatic that torque converter really gets you going off a stoplight so you can move over a lane or whatever ahead of the vehicle you were stopped next to. One can accomplish the same thing in a manual. I don't mean a dramatic burn out, but just a little ZIP ahead to get around a vehicle when you find yourself in the wrong lane, stuck behind a slow lorry etc...

I couldn't find a way to get the MTA to let me do those ZIP manuevers or even pull away from stop lights with any kind of urgency. I tried progressively more pedal pressure and I still got the same thing creep...creep....more creep...a little more creep...still creeping....maybe 3kph now...and for a bit and then seemingly normal acceleration.

Maybe MTA owners can speak up and tell me I was doing it wrong. Regardless, for me the MTA is a bit of a hack. Taking a normal manual transmission and bolting on a robot to run it can never work as well or as reliably as a transmission designed from the beginning to be an automatic.

If you or your partner cannot drive a manual, don't want to learn and really want an Abarth then it's your only choice but definitely not a great one.

Thankyou for the more detailed answer... It sounds exactly like the auto in the fiat (V6) ducato i drive at work... I can drive a manual, but after living with VAG's DSG for 44k now, I will never go back to a manual.. it might be a deal breaker for me..

I have a fabia II vRS, and the DSG is brilliant, it has a learning computer in it to predict what gear you want next, the shifts are seemless and instant, even in manual mode when you are hooning down your fave backroad, and pulling the left paddle three times while braking into the corner ect , engine instantly "blipping" its way down the gears, instant seemless acceleration

on take off, the speed of your take off is directly related to how hard you press the pedal.... e.g here is a fast take off with seemless changes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qC1s3MUUJQE

if the abarth was in the line, would it keep up?

 

[Verb]

Mostly agreed. The VAG fast superminis will likely outperform Abarths. If the goal is the most speed for the money, the Abarth is probably not the best choice.

At the moment, I have a fast-ish car with a Giulietta QV but it is virtually impossible to use even that modest horsepower on the road here in Switzerland.

For me the decision is still around the suspension. Not sure if I can deal with the superstiff 595 suspension. Its hard to tell from a test drive, however long, how livable such a stiff setup is day to day.

 

[loveshandbags]

Mostly agreed. The VAG fast superminis will likely outperform Abarths. If the goal is the most speed for the money, the Abarth is probably not the best choice.

At the moment, I have a fast-ish car with a Giulietta QV but it is virtually impossible to use even that modest horsepower on the road here in Switzerland.

For me the decision is still around the suspension. Not sure if I can deal with the superstiff 595 suspension. Its hard to tell from a test drive, however long, how livable such a stiff setup is day to day.

Would you consider a standard 500 and whilst it's still possible opt for the esseesse package (+ konis) and stick with the standard springs ?
If you're coming from a Giulietta it would be hard to re-adjust after the comfort of an adaptive suspension with a rear multi-link setup. After having a 'drive' in a MiTo Cloverleaf I would rate the A500 as a more fun car.

 

[Verb]

Would you consider a standard 500 and whilst it's still possible opt for the esseesse package (+ konis) and stick with the standard springs ?
If you're coming from a Giulietta it would be hard to re-adjust after the comfort of an adaptive suspension with a rear multi-link setup. After having a 'drive' in a MiTo Cloverleaf I would rate the A500 as a more fun car.

Despite Alfa's intentionally confusing marketing which leads to incorrect articles from reviewers, the Giulietta QV doesn't have adaptive suspension. Moving DNA switch to Dynamic just changes the function of the electronic diff. The function of the dampers is unchanged.

One of my reasons for ditching the Giulietta is to have a more fun car. The Giulietta is a pretty great GT car but is pretty boring for spirited driving.

I found the 595 did pretty well on the motorway and wouldn't be too bad for longer motorway jaunts as long as someone wasn't looking for a particularly plush ride.