Technical 4x4 handling

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

On the fence about getting myself a Panda.
Ive owned 3 different types of AWD car before, Ive had a quick subaru, a slow skoda and an old land rover. The subaru and the land rover both have full time AWD with a constant 50/50 split front/rear.
The skoda has a different kind of AWD system, its effectively a FWD car with an electronic clutch on the rear diff which kicks in when the computers detect the front wheels spinning.
They behave really very differently, the subaru has seemingly endless grip, then when you really are daft you get mild understeer. The skoda on the other hand is rubbish, it understeers like quite a bad FWD car, then the rear wheels kick in and the car starts to corner, by which time its too late and your already in a hedge.
So why is this relevant? Well, Id like to know which one the panda is most similar too. Its most similar to the skoda in terms of FWD until it isnt, but instead of an electronic clutch crap its a viscous coupling.
So, which is it most like? Id especially like to hear from anyone whos driven a subaru, a haldex car and a panda 4x4.
Thanks!

 

[porta]

The panda is a lot less weighty but does roll more than the standard 4x2. It’s much more spirited driving than the Yeti, yes, go hard and it will understeer, but it’s pretty controlled.
I haven’t driven a scooby in a fair amount of years so it was definitely an early one. I’m going to be controversial here, I didn’t like it, yes it was quick, yes it gripped, yes it was fun but, I also thought it was one of those cars that would bite you wehn/if it let go.
The panda really is a different car, more relaxing driving than a skooby or Landy (had 3), goes round corners much better than you think, better off road than a yeti, but can’t carry as much, is noisier…it’s ronseal car, does exactly what it says on the tin…

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

The panda is a lot less weighty but does roll more than the standard 4x2. It’s much more spirited driving than the Yeti, yes, go hard and it will understeer, but it’s pretty controlled.
I haven’t driven a scooby in a fair amount of years so it was definitely an early one. I’m going to be controversial here, I didn’t like it, yes it was quick, yes it gripped, yes it was fun but, I also thought it was one of those cars that would bite you wehn/if it let go.
The panda really is a different car, more relaxing driving than a skooby or Landy (had 3), goes round corners much better than you think, better off road than a yeti, but can’t carry as much, is noisier…it’s ronseal car, does exactly what it says on the tin…

Thanks!
All the real scoobys drive the same because they basically hit the nail on the head in the early 90s and didnt change it until a few years ago. I suppose they do bite when you find the limit in that youve got to be going so fast to actually loose grip that youve not really got much of a chance to react if you do overstep the limit on a road.
Not too worried about the 4x4 suspension etc, that can all be changed (100hp springs and shocks might be a good place to start)
Being better offroad than a yeti isnt hard, its useless. Its even got a torque limiter in reverse so if you do get stuck, theres absolutely no chance of driving out.
Its actually a shame about the payload. Im doing the mongol rally next year and picked up a Daihatsu instead because a panda can onky rake 380kg and the fuel tank is only 30L or something.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I've had an RB320 and many other awds over the years and we currently run an XC70 & a Panda 4x4.

The Subaru was pretty seamless, because that's just what it was, as you indicate. FR split never changed and so the behaviour was very predictable (and rather anaemic short of very very high speeds indeed - speeds I was fearful of on the road.

The variable split vehicles do have a noticeable transition, to a greater or lesser extent, and the Panda (at 111K miles and today in for a diff & PTU oil change, coincidentally) does have quite a noticeable transition, especially when you pull away sharply and drive transfers backwards, but I think that sharpness is connected to its lightness and relative crudity (in terms of sound insulation), which makes things simply more noticeable. I think my diff is a bit noisy too, hence the change. The other handling characteristic which influences the Panda is its height, I find, and on mine at least, I detect an element of the front wanting to tuck under when cornering particularly quickly or sharply.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

I've had an RB320 and many other awds over the years and we currently run an XC70 & a Panda 4x4.

The Subaru was pretty seamless, because that's just what it was, as you indicate. FR split never changed and so the behaviour was very predictable (and rather anaemic short of very very high speeds indeed - speeds I was fearful of on the road.

The variable split vehicles do have a noticeable transition, to a greater or lesser extent, and the Panda (at 111K miles and today in for a diff & PTU oil change, coincidentally) does have quite a noticeable transition, especially when you pull away sharply and drive transfers backwards, but I think that sharpness is connected to its lightness and relative crudity (in terms of sound insulation), which makes things simply more noticeable. I think my diff is a bit noisy too, hence the change. The other handling characteristic which influences the Panda is its height, I find, and on mine at least, I detect an element of the front wanting to tuck under when cornering particularly quickly or sharply.

Yes, how does the Panda compare to the XC70 in terms of how quickly it responds to understeer? The skoda is really very good if youre pulling out of a wet junction quickly, theres almost no wheelspin, but the problem is when you turn into a corner, the understeer is so bad and the system is so slow that I personally find it worse than the 2wd version.
Yes, to push a scooby beyond its limits, particularly a hot impreza, you really have got to be a bit silly. Its a bit like driving on superglue.
Im not sure if Ive done a great job in phrasing my question, so lets say your coming up to a corner on a wet road at say 40mph (the speed isnt really relevant). In a subaru, you turn the wheel, it goes exactly where you point it, no drama. In a 2WD car, you turn in, you get a bit of understeer or oversteer, you manage it and its all fun. In a haldex car, you get understeer, then the 4wd kicks in and the car grips and you go around the bend, or if its too slow you just understeer off the road. You cant back off the throttle like you can in a FWD car because then the 4wd never engages and the understeer gets worse, its really rather crap.
So what does the Panda 4x4 do? I presume it understeers, but is it managable like a FWD car? Does it grip like a subaru? Or is it crap like a haldex car?

 

[porta]

Yes, the understeer on the 4x4 is a lot less than yeti, easily controlled…I throw mine into roundabouts with abandon, it’s light so no bogging or feeling it’s going to tuck a wheel under…best thing to do is get a test drive in one, wehn we went to dealer I insisted we also took it to the farm and drove it off-road. It’s not an Lancia Integrale but it’s fun

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Yes, how does the Panda compare to the XC70 in terms of how quickly it responds to understeer? The skoda is really very good if youre pulling out of a wet junction quickly, theres almost no wheelspin, but the problem is when you turn into a corner, the understeer is so bad and the system is so slow that I personally find it worse than the 2wd version.
Yes, to push a scooby beyond its limits, particularly a hot impreza, you really have got to be a bit silly. Its a bit like driving on superglue.
Im not sure if Ive done a great job in phrasing my question, so lets say your coming up to a corner on a wet road at say 40mph (the speed isnt really relevant). In a subaru, you turn the wheel, it goes exactly where you point it, no drama. In a 2WD car, you turn in, you get a bit of understeer or oversteer, you manage it and its all fun. In a haldex car, you get understeer, then the 4wd kicks in and the car grips and you go around the bend, or if its too slow you just understeer off the road. You cant back off the throttle like you can in a FWD car because then the 4wd never engages and the understeer gets worse, its really rather crap.
So what does the Panda 4x4 do? I presume it understeers, but is it managable like a FWD car? Does it grip like a subaru? Or is it crap like a haldex car?

I don't get anywhere near the limit of adhesion in the XC70 - it's a very heavy best indeed, and when it lets go there's an awful lot of mass to control - something quite noticeable in low grip scenarios like snow & ice, gence the caution, but overall it's a gentle understeerer as you might expect with something engineered to be safe above all else.

The Panda I find very neutral and it can be hustled along at quite a rate of knots if you're so minded, but tbh this is influenced by two or three things in my mind - its low mass and long suspension means it finds compliancy where other cars fear to drive (roads are 3rd world quality around here due to HS2 & EWR breaking them up all the time), plus it's very narrow so gives a good margin of error. I have fitted wider 185/65s to mine, so there's plenty of grip.

 

[porta]

I don't get anywhere near the limit of adhesion in the XC70 - it's a very heavy best indeed, and when it lets go there's an awful lot of mass to control - something quite noticeable in low grip scenarios like snow & ice, gence the caution, but overall it's a gentle understeerer as you might expect with something engineered to be safe above all else.

The Panda I find very neutral and it can be hustled along at quite a rate of knots if you're so minded, but tbh this is influenced by two or three things in my mind - its low mass and long suspension means it finds compliancy where other cars fear to drive (roads are 3rd world quality around here due to HS2 & EWR breaking them up all the time), plus it's very narrow so gives a good margin of error. I have fitted wider 185/65s to mine, so there's plenty of grip.

Reminds me of the last decent snow we had here, came down a long slope near menwith hill with a bend at the bottom, to be greeted by a Volvo SUV in the ditch with steam coming out of the bonnet.
We stopped as, judging by ruts in snow and the steam, it was a very recent incident. Nobody was with car so we traced footprints to a farm house, driver was safe but very embarrassed, especially as we’d driven through the virgin snow on the farm track, to make sure he was alright, in a 2005 Panda Climbing

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

I don't get anywhere near the limit of adhesion in the XC70 - it's a very heavy best indeed, and when it lets go there's an awful lot of mass to control - something quite noticeable in low grip scenarios like snow & ice, gence the caution, but overall it's a gentle understeerer as you might expect with something engineered to be safe above all else.

The Panda I find very neutral and it can be hustled along at quite a rate of knots if you're so minded, but tbh this is influenced by two or three things in my mind - its low mass and long suspension means it finds compliancy where other cars fear to drive (roads are 3rd world quality around here due to HS2 & EWR breaking them up all the time), plus it's very narrow so gives a good margin of error. I have fitted wider 185/65s to mine, so there's plenty of grip.

The main reason understeer is safe isnt because its easier or whatever, its because the crash you typically have from understeer is a head-on crash, which uses the crumple zones and the airbags to their best.
I am quite tempted by the Panda, sounds like it could be a good laugh. It does also seem REALLY slow...

 

[Twotone2]

We’ve just bought a new Panda 4x4 it’s a brilliant thing, I’m really impressed by it, gear changes are very good but in all honesty once you get it in to sixth gear you can just leave it there unless of course you have to slow right down for a bend or an oncoming car etc but it will run fine in a high gear at slow speeds.

We’re currently in the Scottish highlands and it’s handled everything fine I just switch off the eco button, it’s not slow BTW, anything but.

I can’t wait to drive it in the winter as I’ve got a really difficult short steep driveway which is deadly with a tiny bit of snow or frost so looking forward to how it handles that, I usually have to buy about six 25 kg bags of salt every winter, sometimes it takes an entire bag to just get off the drive.

 

[DaveMcT]

My M-Jet has 6J x 14 ET 30 steel wheels with 195-50-15 tyres and standard suspension. It grips like **** to a blanket with what feels like minimal body roll. I put it down to the better grip and less tyre deformation than you'll get from standard 13" wheels.

 

[koalar]

but instead of an electronic clutch crap its a viscous coupling.

GKN (Ferguson) viscous coupling up to June 2008

Post June 2008 are a Magna-Steyr electro-hydraulic coupling

So, which is it most like? Id especially like to hear from anyone whos driven a subaru, a haldex car and a panda 4x4.
Thanks!

Never driven either type, can't say

Keep in mind the viscous coupling is getting to an age (15Y) where the liquid inside some has starting to turn to sludge, finding someone in the UK to service one is next to impossible, (need machining as they are a seals unit) . Replacement new is nearly a grand, they are available from Italy second hand but the postage soon Adds up

Panda 4x4 viscous coupling | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

I suspect I know the answer to this….. my viscous coupling has seized solid on my newly-acquired 2007 4x4. Apparently, I have three options: Pay Fiat about 90% of what I paid for the car for a new one Find a decent secondhand unit Find somewhere that repairs them I think #2 is probably my...

www.fiatforum.com

If you buy a 169 4x4 also inspect the rear subframe carefully, we have seen a few scrapped for rot in this area as replacements aren't easy to come by in the UK

 

[DaveMcT]

The main rear subframe is no longer available. A fairly rotten subframe can be welded - it's made from welded tubes. But leave it too long and you'll never get the brackets into the right place. Swing arms do appear on eBay so get a pair as future spares.

 

[epifant]

I am quite tempted by the Panda, sounds like it could be a good laugh. It does also seem REALLY slow...

My 1.2 petrol 4x4 is slow, but the 69 bhp engine is almost terrier-like. Like its always eager to get up and go, the drivetrain just makes it sluggish. Much fun wringing it at high rpm, only to look down at the dials and see I'm hardly past the speed limit. Rusty back box adding to the experience..

I test drove a similar 4x4 Panda with 60 bhp a few years ago that felt REALLY slow, both in terms of speed and engine characteristics. Suprisingly big difference - although anecdotal having only driven these two cars.

 

[koalar]

My 1.2 petrol 4x4 is slow, but the 69 bhp engine is almost terrier-like. Like its always eager to get up and go, the drivetrain just makes it sluggish. Much fun wringing it at high rpm, only to look down at the dials and see I'm hardly past the speed limit. Rusty back box adding to the experience..

I test drove a similar 4x4 Panda with 60 bhp a few years ago that felt REALLY slow, both in terms of speed and engine characteristics. Suprisingly big difference - although anecdotal having only driven these two cars.

That's the problem with test driving old cars

The engine curves of the 60hp and 69hp are near as dam it identical except right at the rev limit

I posted the engine dyno print outs of both awhile back

There so many variables, cam timing, plugs, air filter, compression and so on to get a fair comparison

 

[MrMagoo]

I rate the 1.2 8v engine, the torque curve is spot on for 60-80mph crusing even when fully loaded.

 

[koalar]

These are off an engine dyno
Rebuilt engine after 50 hours run time


You should not be able to tell the difference in normal driving, if both cars are 100%, reduced compression causing bad low down torque due to incorrect timing is common the 69hp


69HP

60HP

Trace up from the 2000,3000,4000 marks

VVT only kicks in at higher rpm

 

[rmjbn1]

I rate the 1.2 8v engine, the torque curve is spot on for 60-80mph crusing even when fully loaded.

Completely agree - it was one of the first things I noticed when getting to know my 60hp Panda.

It pulls much better than a few 1.4s of similar age I've driven, and suits the car perfectly I think.

It really helps that it generates maximum torque at 2500rpm - significantly lower than a lot of equivalent engines.