Technical 2013 Ducato - Cigarette / Power Socket Permanent Power Mod

[SBQ]

In this day of age, what is the logic of having 2 - yes TWO cigarette lighter sockets? How about both sockets having power only when the key ignition is switched on? (in MAR position). A bit of online searching and have had no luck doing a simple modification of our 2013 Ducato cigarette / power sockets to go 'permanent live'. Yes earlier model Ducato vans have detailed cigarette socket mods but that information was of no use. I also read the different ways of making either socket (or both) permanently wired for 12 VDC, such as disconnecting the 12 volt lead on the back of the socket (which requires dismantling the dash), then tapping a constant 12 volt power source elsewhere via splicing into lines etc. IMO not very elegant. Likewise is putting in aftermarket sockets with separate wiring.. again not very elegant.

With a bit of knowledge in electronics, the method I chose was to do the modifications at the fuse box. I mean after all, there are 2 existing cigarette sockets and having read about some CANBUS system - that's more of a fault protection issue by the ECU.

However doing this modification i've discovered the fuses were not correct. Detailed in photos below:

https://postimg.org/image/lylqg4y73

https://postimg.org/image/ek101i1pb

Taken from the user manual, Cigar Socket is fuse F15 10AMP and Power Socket (other cigarette socket) is fuse F14 15AMP

But when looking at the actual fuse box, F15 had a 15AMP fuse and F14 had a 10AMP fuse (swapped around). Testing with a volt meter confirmed the 180W power socket is fuse F15. Photo below shows my mod where fuse F15 removed and F14 changed to appropriate 10AMP fuse for the cigar socket. The modification was quite simple, ring terminal lead 1 end and other end of the lead was a flat end. White tape label is fuse holder.

https://postimg.org/image/71d9f4kyn

And voila!

https://postimg.org/image/f5ldjv7dr

I did not bother to changing the other socket to permanent live but it's an easy task to do if need. The tricky part is to know when end of the fuse that goes direct to the socket (as the other connector of the fuse would come from the relay once ignition is switched on).

 

[Mohojo]

Fiat must think that life stops with the engine........I fitted usb/cig lighter extensions to each side of the dash to stop all the damned unsightly wires trailing all over the dash. Fed the usb's from the live on the radio and piggybacked the cig lighter socket. I would post a pic if I knew how....

 

[Mohojo]

£6.50

 

[SBQ]

https://www.fiatforum.com/autolink.php?id=1&script=showthread&forumid=108

Fiat must think that life stops with the engine........I fitted usb/cig lighter extensions to each side of the dash to stop all the damned unsightly wires trailing all over the dash. Fed the usb's from the live on the radio and piggybacked the cig lighter socket. I would post a pic if I knew how....

I'll have to agree. It seems not much thought is planned out for the interior - after all these years of Ducato production, having dual power sockets is a weak attempt for overkill.

Not a big fan of aftermarket accessories but quite suitable for modifying older vehicles. My car audio days have taught me about clean installations and keep things to 'appear' the factory look as possible (and not something done out of a backyard). If 2 power sockets exist, i'm better to make use of them in the way they should be.

 

[Mohojo]

The Trannie is more user friendly. Ford seem to provide a more ergonomic design.

 

[g8rpi]

I'll have to agree. It seems not much thought is planned out for the interior - after all these years of Ducato production, having dual power sockets is a weak attempt for overkill.

Not a big fan of aftermarket accessories but quite suitable for modifying older vehicles. My car audio days have taught me about clean installations and keep things to 'appear' the factory look as possible (and not something done out of a backyard). If 2 power sockets exist, i'm better to make use of them in the way they should be.

The main reason for most cars having switched power sockets these days is to stop the battery being drained or the car catching fire due to accessories like GPS and smartphone with lithium batteries being left plugged in. If they switch the power off it stops you blaming them for the problem. To be honest I would not want to leave any modern accessory plugged in and powered with the car unattended. You insurance might not want to pay up if a modification like this caused a phone to catch fire and good luck getting the supplier of a cheap charger to pay for a new car.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[Mohojo]

It's a bit different with a motorhome. You inhabit it for long periods whilst the vehicle is laid up and don't expect to need the engine running while this is happening.

 

[g8rpi]

In a motorhome I'd expect any plug-ins to be on the "domestic" battery and they often use the ISO 4165 connectors. In any case the chassis maker does not know it it will be a tipper. ambulance, motorhome or whatever so they design for the safest case.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[SBQ]

You insurance might not want to pay up if a modification like this caused a phone to catch fire and good luck getting the supplier of a cheap charger to pay for a new car.

If mobile devices are known to catch on fire (ie. Samsung's recent Galaxy Note 7) then the device maker is forced to take them off the market. After all, people live in houses with mains power outlets, how many houses are burnt down due to plug in devices catching on fire?

The main reason for most cars having switched power sockets these days is to stop the battery being drained or the car catching fire due to accessories like GPS and smartphone with lithium batteries being left plugged in

No portable device like smartphones (ones with lithium batteries) have the capacity to drain the main 12V start battery. Most USB cigarette chargers are rated 1A max which is 5 watts to these devices. Now if we're running compressors or high powered car audio amplifiers off the cigarette lighter socket, then we're talking 100 - 500 watts draw. A horse of a different colour to charging/using portable GPS/smartphones/tablets. But let's assume we keep everything untouched. I would not be surprised using the key ignition switched to MAR position would draw more than 5 watts off the battery as the ECU is powered up, what about the diesel ignition system and coils? Even so, what about the safety issue of LEAVING THE KEYS in the ignition when you're parked? Thieves are opportunists and known keys in any vehicle means a fast getaway.

It's a bit different with a motorhome. You inhabit it for long periods whilst the vehicle is laid up and don't expect to need the engine running while this is happening.

Completely agree. Being parked overnight or for days is of great inconvenience having 2 power sockets that can't be used. Travelling with a family (children) each having portable devices require more than 1 power socket for USB charging.

In a motorhome I'd expect any plug-ins to be on the "domestic" battery and they often use the ISO 4165 connectors. In any case the chassis maker does not know it it will be a tipper. ambulance, motorhome or whatever so they design for the safest case.

Our Swift Autocruise motorhome came with 2 standard cigarette lighter sockets. I've not seen such ISO 4165 sockets used in motorhomes/RVs other than in motorcycles. Our TV takes up 1 socket and in the back, the other socket is often used (leaving now power socket to use in the front part of the van). As for the chassis maker, it's very common for platform runs made specific for RV/ Van Conversion use. In the case of Ducato, RV manufacturers specify the RV electrics package so they the RV charging system / electronics can interface with the Fiat electronics. This has been the norm even in N. America for the Dodge B series vans - and not in terms of electronics but a specified RV cam used in their V8 petro motors. So the platform makers DO know if their vehicles are destined for RV / motorhome use.

 

[g8rpi]

SBQ said "No portable device like smartphones (ones with lithium batteries) have the capacity to drain the main 12V start battery. Most USB cigarette chargers are rated 1A max which is 5 watts to these devices. Now if we're running compressors or high powered car audio amplifiers off the cigarette lighter socket, then we're talking 100 - 500 watts draw. A horse of a different colour to charging/using portable GPS/smartphones/tablets. But let's assume we keep everything untouched. I would not be surprised using the key ignition switched to MAR position would draw more than 5 watts off the battery as the ECU is powered up, what about the diesel ignition system and coils? Even so, what about the safety issue of LEAVING THE KEYS in the ignition when you're parked? Thieves are opportunists and known keys in any vehicle means a fast getaway."

Not true, many chargers supply more than 1A but even if we take that, at 80% efficiency thats 6.2W or about 0.52A at 12V. Even with no other loading (alarm remote radio standby) this will flatten a 70AH battery in less than a week (5.6 days) Admittedly it probably won't be running at full load for that time, but I've also assumed the car battery is perfect and fully charged. Don't forget the discussion was about unattended operation.
The fire risk is real especially if a 3rd party car charger is used. The phone maker won't take responsibility if it's not their charger and most of them say not to charge unattended these days. Add the high temperatures in vehicles (even in a UK summer) and it's high risk.
I'm just trying to put it from the car makers point of view.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[SBQ]

Not true, many chargers supply more than 1A but even if we take that, at 80% efficiency thats 6.2W or about 0.52A at 12V. Even with no other loading (alarm remote radio standby) this will flatten a 70AH battery in less than a week (5.6 days)

I have a problem with the Ducato start battery going dead in 2 weeks and this is just sitting (with no accessories on). This is also a common occurrence in newer Honda CRV models. The ECU and auto makers security continuously draws off the battery when parked. Engineer assume that these vehicles are to be driven daily. But RVs and motorhomes are not driven daily - on most part driven seasonally. I suppose engineers think for the masses that drive daily. A pity when early classic cars never have to address the issue of dead batteries from being parked a month or so.

The fire risk is real especially if a 3rd party car charger is used. The phone maker won't take responsibility if it's not their charger and most of them say not to charge unattended these days. Add the high temperatures in vehicles (even in a UK summer) and it's high risk.
I'm just trying to put it from the car makers point of view.

I hear what you're saying that fire is a risk. But that's not to say insurance companies won't cover you. Our motorhome Ducato has insurance that covers fire but no mention of using 3rd party devices in the fine print. But your issue of being unattended? The RV conversion portion (by Swift) has electrics (2 power sockets) intended to be live all the time when parked. How much of a risk of fire are we talking about when we used these outlets while sleeping overnight? Then again, smoke detectors are a standard installation in newer motorhomes (no different to houses having smoke detectors).

If the one 180watt power socket doesn't serve my needs, i'll do the same mod to the other cigarette socket. After all, all the classic cars I see have cigarette sockets that are live and can still start after being parked for a month or so. Modern vehicle have a tough enough problem dealing with dead batteries from hungry ECU and anti-theft security systems. I mean, it's of moot interest to say that engineers don't permanent power the cigarette lighter sockets in fear of the any device connected, drains the battery dead, when the engine computer electronics alone can drain the battery dead in a few weeks? Like what kind of nonsense logic is that??? I would say it's more like their inability to design engine electronics to draw little power from the battery when sitting that they must disable permanent power to the cigarette lighter socket because the ECU etc is already taxing enough on the battery. So they compensate this by using a much larger battery in the Ducato (I mean look at the cost of these batteries used in the Ducatos?)

 

[Mohojo]

On our previous Mk7 Trannie it came with his n hers permanently live sockets powered by an aux battery in tandem with the starter battery. The aux battery could go flat without ever effecting the starter battery. This was all in addition to the leisure batteries. A damn site more user friendly. AND you could fill the blinking windscreen washer bottle without having to need a special pourer.