Technical 2005 Fiat punto - unplugged sensors

[AnnieB47]

Hi. my son recently purchased a punto from a used car sales garage. The car had an MOT the before the purchase (carried out by the sellers MOT garage) and stopped working on the day after purchase.
Upon inspection by RAC the car has a failed cam belt with a previously failed cam belt tensioner and 2 unplugged sensors inside the engine (which we can only assume the garage unplugged). My question is does anyone know what the sensors are to, would they prevent any warning lights appearing?

 

[AnnieB47]

Follow the link ,You must act now.
If your rights(your sons rights) have been breached,
The dealer could be trying to run down the 30days you have from purchasing the used car to handing it back for a full refund.

We have already spoken with citizens advice and sent the 1st letter. No response. Letter 2 is in process, however they advised we have 2-3 independent reports should it definitely end up in court (still hoping the garage sees sense and pays us a refund). Spoken to a mechanic today who is happy to do a report so long as he doesn’t have to attend court. Says the report may not help though and it’ll cost £78 - unsure whether to continue if not guaranteed to get money back from the garage.

 

[AndyRKett]

So there are a number of things to consider here.

1. you buy a car from a company or dealership, they can write what ever nonsense they want on the receipt about "sold as seen", "no warranty"
If they are knowingly selling the car to a consumer and not another dealer or scrapping it, then it is reasonable to expect that what they are selling is fit for purpose. They sold it with an MOT your son was a consumer who intended to use the car as a car and not to scrap it or break it for parts, then it is reasonable to expect the car should be fit for purpose.

2. Unfortunately a cambelt is a wearable item and can break at any time. As a buyer its important to check what has and hasn't been replaced. I know this is not easy for a novice to know but there are plenty of websites that can give you advice on what to look out for, before you buy. In this case it snapped the day after the car was sold, I'd argue that as the car was sold with reasonable expectation it should be fit for purpose then the onus is on the garage in this case that you had a right to expect the car to not suffer a catastrophic engine failure within 24 hours.

3. If the money was paid directly into the account of someone this works in your favor. you can sue that person for the money back via small claims assuming the value of the car is under £5k. Sometimes when you are trying to get your money back form a trader, it can be difficult to know or prove that the car belonged to them or where the money actually went or the company suddenly shuts down or changes ownership.

4. Ignore the MOT. The MOT is a snapshot of roadworthiness on the day the car is inspected. In this instance I assume the MOT was done some time before the car was bought. So things can still fail even when the car is not being used. Also they don't look at the engine. You might get an advisory for an oil leak but as long as it starts and moves under its own power, then it can still pass an MOT as long as the brakes, body and suspension do not show major failure or damage. Basically the MOT only looks at Safety and not how reliable or well looked after a car is. a cambelt would never be looked at on an MOT.

5. Ignore the plugs, unless there is any sign of anything missing from the engine bay or something missing from the spec of the car, like it should have air-conditioning but the aircon doesn't work. they are probably a read herring. Fiats often use wiring looms for higher spec cars across the whole range. It saves having to make multiple different types of wiring looms for a high spec or a low speck car, on the lower spec cars there can be several unused plugs knocking around in an engine bay. Its very common where Air-conditions is not fitted to still have plugs for air-condition sensors which are not there. It doesn't cause any issues normally.

It sounds like as you've spoken to Citizens advice you have taken the right steps. Write your letters, you have to give them a chance to respond, then if they still won't put it right, then you can proceed to small claims, fill in the forms online, pay your £125 or what ever it is now, and eventually it will go to court. Your engineer would not have to give a statement in court if he's written a report. maybe if he is happy to do a report get him to comment on the whole condition of the car as well as the faults you have found. It may be important in demonstrating that the car is a pile of crap. Then also gather some other adverts of similar cars to show the quality, price, warranty that other cars are going for. you may be able to argue that you had reasonable expectation of a warranty, I believe the minimum on used cars is 3 months, which covers everything and anything not just what the dealer decides is or isn't covered.
I do not understand a situation where they can claim the cambelt isn't covered under the warranty but it is "sold as seen"

As someone else pointed out there are no sensors that when unplugged would turn off an engine warning light. if anything unplugging things will cause problems. The engine warning light on an old MOT should have been a failure if it was recent, which would suggest they were able to turn it off. This could just be an old fault stored in the computer, and someone has plugged the car in and cleared the old fault.

 

[AnnieB47]

So there are a number of things to consider here.

1. you buy a car from a company or dealership, they can write what ever nonsense they want on the receipt about "sold as seen", "no warranty"
If they are knowingly selling the car to a consumer and not another dealer or scrapping it, then it is reasonable to expect that what they are selling is fit for purpose. They sold it with an MOT your son was a consumer who intended to use the car as a car and not to scrap it or break it for parts, then it is reasonable to expect the car should be fit for purpose.

2. Unfortunately a cambelt is a wearable item and can break at any time. As a buyer its important to check what has and hasn't been replaced. I know this is not easy for a novice to know but there are plenty of websites that can give you advice on what to look out for, before you buy. In this case it snapped the day after the car was sold, I'd argue that as the car was sold with reasonable expectation it should be fit for purpose then the onus is on the garage in this case that you had a right to expect the car to not suffer a catastrophic engine failure within 24 hours.

3. If the money was paid directly into the account of someone this works in your favor. you can sue that person for the money back via small claims assuming the value of the car is under £5k. Sometimes when you are trying to get your money back form a trader, it can be difficult to know or prove that the car belonged to them or where the money actually went or the company suddenly shuts down or changes ownership.

4. Ignore the MOT. The MOT is a snapshot of roadworthiness on the day the car is inspected. In this instance I assume the MOT was done some time before the car was bought. So things can still fail even when the car is not being used. Also they don't look at the engine. You might get an advisory for an oil leak but as long as it starts and moves under its own power, then it can still pass an MOT as long as the brakes, body and suspension do not show major failure or damage. Basically the MOT only looks at Safety and not how reliable or well looked after a car is. a cambelt would never be looked at on an MOT.

5. Ignore the plugs, unless there is any sign of anything missing from the engine bay or something missing from the spec of the car, like it should have air-conditioning but the aircon doesn't work. they are probably a read herring. Fiats often use wiring looms for higher spec cars across the whole range. It saves having to make multiple different types of wiring looms for a high spec or a low speck car, on the lower spec cars there can be several unused plugs knocking around in an engine bay. Its very common where Air-conditions is not fitted to still have plugs for air-condition sensors which are not there. It doesn't cause any issues normally.

It sounds like as you've spoken to Citizens advice you have taken the right steps. Write your letters, you have to give them a chance to respond, then if they still won't put it right, then you can proceed to small claims, fill in the forms online, pay your £125 or what ever it is now, and eventually it will go to court. Your engineer would not have to give a statement in court if he's written a report. maybe if he is happy to do a report get him to comment on the whole condition of the car as well as the faults you have found. It may be important in demonstrating that the car is a pile of crap. Then also gather some other adverts of similar cars to show the quality, price, warranty that other cars are going for. you may be able to argue that you had reasonable expectation of a warranty, I believe the minimum on used cars is 3 months, which covers everything and anything not just what the dealer decides is or isn't covered.
I do not understand a situation where they can claim the cambelt isn't covered under the warranty but it is "sold as seen"

As someone else pointed out there are no sensors that when unplugged would turn off an engine warning light. if anything unplugging things will cause problems. The engine warning light on an old MOT should have been a failure if it was recent, which would suggest they were able to turn it off. This could just be an old fault stored in the computer, and someone has plugged the car in and cleared the old fault.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and help - this is really well summed up

 

[eeeno]

I'd add some pressure for the dealer to settle this out of court by writing a review on Google reviews and some other places. Make it believable, nice and short. A professinal dealer doesn't do business like that and you should let people know about your poor experience. It'll be very bad for their business. Also put it to Facebook.

Probably the belt just jumped a tooth when tensioner or waterpump bearing failed. Belts break very rarely. I'd guess that someone has saved a few coins by just changing just the belt, leaving waterpump and tensioner untouched.

 

[jackwhoo]

I read the rac "report" the rac patrol didn't look at the belt but made a guess that it had broken and a guess that cause was tensioner failure.
So we just don't know for sure.
It is a shame no one has removed the upper belt cover to check the belt, it could be something else that's not an engine write off.

 

[AnnieB47]

So there are a number of things to consider here.

1. you buy a car from a company or dealership, they can write what ever nonsense they want on the receipt about "sold as seen", "no warranty"
If they are knowingly selling the car to a consumer and not another dealer or scrapping it, then it is reasonable to expect that what they are selling is fit for purpose. They sold it with an MOT your son was a consumer who intended to use the car as a car and not to scrap it or break it for parts, then it is reasonable to expect the car should be fit for purpose.

2. Unfortunately a cambelt is a wearable item and can break at any time. As a buyer its important to check what has and hasn't been replaced. I know this is not easy for a novice to know but there are plenty of websites that can give you advice on what to look out for, before you buy. In this case it snapped the day after the car was sold, I'd argue that as the car was sold with reasonable expectation it should be fit for purpose then the onus is on the garage in this case that you had a right to expect the car to not suffer a catastrophic engine failure within 24 hours.

3. If the money was paid directly into the account of someone this works in your favor. you can sue that person for the money back via small claims assuming the value of the car is under £5k. Sometimes when you are trying to get your money back form a trader, it can be difficult to know or prove that the car belonged to them or where the money actually went or the company suddenly shuts down or changes ownership.

4. Ignore the MOT. The MOT is a snapshot of roadworthiness on the day the car is inspected. In this instance I assume the MOT was done some time before the car was bought. So things can still fail even when the car is not being used. Also they don't look at the engine. You might get an advisory for an oil leak but as long as it starts and moves under its own power, then it can still pass an MOT as long as the brakes, body and suspension do not show major failure or damage. Basically the MOT only looks at Safety and not how reliable or well looked after a car is. a cambelt would never be looked at on an MOT.

5. Ignore the plugs, unless there is any sign of anything missing from the engine bay or something missing from the spec of the car, like it should have air-conditioning but the aircon doesn't work. they are probably a read herring. Fiats often use wiring looms for higher spec cars across the whole range. It saves having to make multiple different types of wiring looms for a high spec or a low speck car, on the lower spec cars there can be several unused plugs knocking around in an engine bay. Its very common where Air-conditions is not fitted to still have plugs for air-condition sensors which are not there. It doesn't cause any issues normally.

It sounds like as you've spoken to Citizens advice you have taken the right steps. Write your letters, you have to give them a chance to respond, then if they still won't put it right, then you can proceed to small claims, fill in the forms online, pay your £125 or what ever it is now, and eventually it will go to court. Your engineer would not have to give a statement in court if he's written a report. maybe if he is happy to do a report get him to comment on the whole condition of the car as well as the faults you have found. It may be important in demonstrating that the car is a pile of crap. Then also gather some other adverts of similar cars to show the quality, price, warranty that other cars are going for. you may be able to argue that you had reasonable expectation of a warranty, I believe the minimum on used cars is 3 months, which covers everything and anything not just what the dealer decides is or isn't covered.
I do not understand a situation where they can claim the cambelt isn't covered under the warranty but it is "sold as seen"

As someone else pointed out there are no sensors that when unplugged would turn off an engine warning light. if anything unplugging things will cause problems. The engine warning light on an old MOT should have been a failure if it was recent, which would suggest they were able to turn it off. This could just be an old fault stored in the computer, and someone has plugged the car in and cleared the old fault.

I'd add some pressure for the dealer to settle this out of court by writing a review on Google reviews and some other places. Make it believable, nice and short. A professinal dealer doesn't do business like that and you should let people know about your poor experience. It'll be very bad for their business. Also put it to Facebook.

Probably the belt just jumped a tooth when tensioner or waterpump bearing failed. Belts break very rarely. I'd guess that someone has saved a few coins by just changing just the belt, leaving waterpump and tensioner untouched.

I was so tempted to write a poor review but I wondered if that would hinder any court proceedings? I work for NHS and have access to intranet staff forums where I can do plenty of damage also their garage is very near where I work it’s quite well known!
Is there any way to check if they have left water pump and tensioner untouched and if they did then prove this caused the catastrophe?

 

[jackwhoo]

If you buy a new or used car from a dealer and have problems with it, you have some statutory rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

The Act states the car must be “of a satisfactory quality”, “fit for purpose” and “as described”. (For a used car, “satisfactory quality” takes into account the car’s age and mileage.)

Don't get hung up on what they did or didn't do.....failing the day after purchase is not "satisfactory quality"

 

[AndyRKett]

I was so tempted to write a poor review but I wondered if that would hinder any court proceedings? I work for NHS and have access to intranet staff forums where I can do plenty of damage also their garage is very near where I work it’s quite well known!
Is there any way to check if they have left water pump and tensioner untouched and if they did then prove this caused the catastrophe?

Don’t go writing nasty reviews it may hinder your chances of getting the garage to deal with things, by all means once everything is resolved one way or another you can.

Just to check I understand. Is there any proof or evidence that the cambelt has ever been replaced? If so how long ago?

These are not legal arguments anyway, there is no requirement for a dealership to change a cambelt, water pump or tensioner, a good dealership might do that if it’s due, or might include it in the negotiations “we’ll change the cam belt if you buy the car” but worrying about what work has or hasn’t been done won’t get you anywhere.
It might just explain why the belt failed if the belt had been replaced but the pump or tensioner had not.

Has the belt been visually inspected to see if it has snapped or come off?

 

[eeeno]

Nevertheless the dealer should sort it out for you at no cost or refund the money.

On the contrary, a poor experience is something people should know about. Your son should have the money back in no time and then you can add a good review, that the dealer kindly refunded. They're going to be out of business if they keep treating customers poorly. It's their mistake, not your son's. There's nothing nasty about telling the truth.

They're already denying everything, so a nice honest review is always a step forward. A customer can't be expected to know everything about cars.

 

[AnnieB47]

Don’t go writing nasty reviews it may hinder your chances of getting the garage to deal with things, by all means once everything is resolved one way or another you can.

Just to check I understand. Is there any proof or evidence that the cambelt has ever been replaced? If so how long ago?

These are not legal arguments anyway, there is no requirement for a dealership to change a cambelt, water pump or tensioner, a good dealership might do that if it’s due, or might include it in the negotiations “we’ll change the cam belt if you buy the car” but worrying about what work has or hasn’t been done won’t get you anywhere.
It might just explain why the belt failed if the belt had been replaced but the pump or tensioner had not.

Has the belt been visually inspected to see if it has snapped or come off?

We dont know if it’s snapped or come off we only have the original RAC report which doesn’t say

 

[vexorg]

Was it a legit dealer? as in a registered company, or just some backstreet cowboy?

How much did you pay for the car? £200 maybe not worth the hassle, £2,000 would be.

 

[AnnieB47]

If you buy a new or used car from a dealer and have problems with it, you have some statutory rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

The Act states the car must be “of a satisfactory quality”, “fit for purpose” and “as described”. (For a used car, “satisfactory quality” takes into account the car’s age and mileage.)

Don't get hung up on what they did or didn't do.....failing the day after purchase is not "satisfactory quality"

Was it a legit dealer? as in a registered company, or just some backstreet cowboy?

How much did you pay for the car? £200 maybe not worth the hassle, £2,000 would be.

Paid £1300 for the car
MSC Motors Ltd - they’re listed on companies house as a limited company

 

[eeeno]

Even if a car didn't actually cost much, it would have to work longer than that. They can't just expect to make a quick easy money on selling faulty cars and insist that they have no warranty. It's up to the dealer to sort it out at their expense.

 

[AnnieB47]

Even if a car didn't actually cost much, it would have to work longer than that. They can't just expect to make a quick easy money on selling faulty cars and insist that they have no warranty. It's up to the dealer to sort it out at their expense.

Exactly! they’re delusional if they think spending £1300 for a car to last 2 days is acceptable.
If since heard from other people that they buy from auction and resell without actually doing any work on the cars they sell

 

[AndyRKett]

We dont know if it’s snapped or come off we only have the original RAC report which doesn’t say

OK so If I am understanding the situation is as follows.

Your son goes to this garage pays £1300 for a 2005 Punto Mk2B XBOX edition
essentially paid cash as it was a bank transfer rather than via finance or credit card.

This is a 1.2 16 valve so it has what's called an "interference engine" meaning if the cambelt snaps the valves and pistons occupy the same space and collide causing the engine damage. (just for reference the 8valve engines do not do this, if the belt snaps you pop a new one on and keep driving)

The car fails the day after purchase.
So The RAC came out had a look and said "the car has a failed cam belt with a previously failed cam belt tensioner " I am going to ignore the plugs.

You presumably went to the garage said the car has a broken cambelt and they said "tough luck sold as seen, haven't even looked at it.

Now £1300 for that car is top price, and well over the odds for the mileage

I want you to go to Parkers.co.uk and print off this https://www.parkers.co.uk/fiat/punto/hatchback-2003/12-16v-xbox-3d/78/free-valuation/
Click on the ( i ) beside the dealers price and it will give you an idea of what you can expect. It may be worth paying a fiver for a custom valuation.

This will give some weight to the fact that the car was clearly not "sold as seen" i.e they where selling it at top price from a dealership so should expect to have the same service as any other car they sell.

The MOT history shows that it was living in Liverpool in January, Clearly had a pretty Poor MOT and was not retested so presumably the owner scrapped it or sold it off cheap, maybe traded it in with a dealership or someone like webuyanycar. It probably went to auction and ended up with this dealer, who must have done some work to be able to sell it, and there must be some record of that.
The fact they sold it with 3months later with an MOT suggests that they did not intend it to be "sold as seen" They put effort into preparing the car for sale as a roadworthy car, which goes back to that expectation as a customer that the car be "fit for purpose"

Without knowing what the RAC actually did when they inspected it, its hard to comment if the cambelt is actually broken, how they establised it had previously had a cam belt tensioner failure etc.

What you need is to know for sure what has actually.
Did the car break down or did it just not start?
Knowing what the fault is will instruct what you do next as it may only be worth scrap. It may be worth repairing.

Knowing the fault yourself will mean you can either say you have lost the full value of the car all £1300 or if it needs repair and it will cost £500 for repair, then you may only be entitled to claim £500 against the company.

Rather than going in all guns blazing at this point I would be paying a visit to the dealership with all the paperwork you have, on a nice busy weekend day and having a loud conversation about the car you bought breaking down the next day and what are they going to do about it. Make it "Available" to them. "It is not drivable but it is Parked at ...... here is the key for you to go and collect it."

If they are still refusing you will have to look at getting it repaired yourself or if it cannot be repaired, it may have to be scrapped, and you'll need to keep records and sue for what ever your out of pocket expenses are. (i'd be including a couple of pints of fuel for the price of paying them a visit at the dealership to get it resolved)


Once you have a known value of loss, records to say what went wrong, the cost of repair or receipt showing what you paid. you can take this all to court and no judge would rule against you.


Just bare in mind that this company has only existed since 02/07/2020 with the previous company MCH Motors ltd being dissolved on the 25/01/2020. (same director) it may be they are the sort of people who will suddenly disappear if you do end up in court, (change the company name again and dissolve the old one) however if the money was paid into the account of a private individual then you may be able to sue them instead of the company.


The Google rating for this Business is pretty high so I don't think one review from a one of customer will make much difference, would just look like one disgruntled customer out of the 88 positive reviews they do have.

 

[AndyRKett]

Just as a final point

"Sold as seen ‘ or ‘ trade sale’ are not legally binding terms even when included on a sales invoice. If buying from a dealer, it is advisable to ignore this type of statement where the trader is attempting to remove their liability should something be wrong with the car."


Maybe during your "loud" conversation in the dealership, bring up all the previous MOT failure points and ask them where all the receipts are for the work that was done to repair these faults. It may make them nervous if they are getting dodgy MOTs done and they don't want someone asking questions about this.
Best case scenario for you would be to get them to agree to giving you back the £1300 you give the car back and you walk away not asking any more questions. If they are a fairly dodgy company then pointing out all the suspected issues might make them nervous and back down.

I am going to ask a MOD to remove the company name from this thread just so this company doesn't come along and start throwing around accusations about the forum bringing their company into disrepute

 

[vexorg]

This might be a bit sexist nowadays, but do you have a male friend that is very knowledgable about cars?
They are much less likely to try fob you off if you have someone with you that knows about engines and timing belts.

 

[judderbar]

I think you will find the yellow plug is unplugged on most puntos. I dont recognise the other plug. It does not look like a fiat plug to me.

 

[eeeno]

Maybe twenty years ago online presence didn't count as much as it does today. Any credible bad review with a real name on it is a big deal. It's the first one Google shows when someone googles that company. Business is based on trust. They've already treated you badly and the experience is poor, so why not let others know about a car worth £1300 which lasted for two days which they refuse to accept back. They should have mentioned that it needs to be towed.

My Fiat is worth twice the price than i paid for three years ago and for sure this opens a whole new way of making easy money with questionable car sales.