I have a 2000 Ducato chassis motorhome, 19.TD 5 speed. I had an issue with the gearbox and got that sorted, however there seems to be a leak from the speedo cable mount on the gearbox. The shop that did the repair mentioned that they had to fill it using the speedo cable hole, which sounded a little odd to me. I finally had a chance to crawl up under it and it appears like they might have broken something and instead of fixing it, just gobbed RTV on it. If this is how they "fixed" something, then I do not want to take it back to them. Does anyone have a picture of the speedo cable mount on the gearbox? I don't want to go disturbing this until I know if I need another cable, mounting plate, seals, etc.
Technical 2000 1.9TD gearbox advice...
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2000 1.9TD gearbox advice...
Hi Stholt and welcome, I own a 1996 1.9td. First of all, I would say don't panic. The gearbox is not going to empty itself as the leak is from the top and is not under pressure. Secondly, it is quite normal on some Fiat gearboxes to have to fill in this way God knows why. Designer couldn't be bothered finding a proper filling point. (mine has a dip stick by the way. obviously a different designer.) Finally, I don't know what RTV is but I assume it is some kind of sealant. Clean it off and replace with something better. Your're not going to be checking oil level every 5 minutes and the chances of finding a replacement part is pretty remote, unless you visit scrapyards on a regular basis. Even then, You could crawl under umpteen Ducatos before you find a gearbox designed by the same lazy b****rd that designed yours. Just be aware that you have a small problem and don't park on any fancy driveways, especially if they belong to friends. All the Best, Ian.
As @cid says.
My thoughts are I have had to use that method on certain vehicles, generally Peugeot and Renault using that type of design gearbox. Probably because some versions of the 1.9D (XUD engines?) were Peugeot/Renault etc. Rather than Fiat.
The rubber mushroom is usually pulled out carefully from the thick end and when replace poked through the hole until enough of the thinner part is through, to then gently pull on that thin end , this has the affect of stretching it thinner slightly allowing it to be pulled up as far as it is meant to go to be secure. I have often seen broken and damaged rubber mushrooms.
There is probably an O ring on the end of the speedo cable where it pushes into the drive and care must be taken to engage the square drive end.
I can't remember as last one I did was probably 25 years ago, but I would expect another O ring or gasket at the flange where drive meets gearbox at the 10mm bolt drive flange.
Also when using this method normally in the past I would have left that part in place and simply undone the 10mm bolt on the flange as seen in your photo and eased the whole drive out, importantly being careful that the gear part stays in the part you have removed, this gives greater access to pour oil in ( By the way only fill to cover where the gears sit to prevent overfilling) when you come to replace the drive hold it together so the gear part doesn't drop off and misalign with the corresponding drive gear in differential.
It all sound long winded but in practice not too bad.
I assume speedo is still working smoothly , otherwise they may have damaged the drive.
My thoughts are I have had to use that method on certain vehicles, generally Peugeot and Renault using that type of design gearbox. Probably because some versions of the 1.9D (XUD engines?) were Peugeot/Renault etc. Rather than Fiat.
The rubber mushroom is usually pulled out carefully from the thick end and when replace poked through the hole until enough of the thinner part is through, to then gently pull on that thin end , this has the affect of stretching it thinner slightly allowing it to be pulled up as far as it is meant to go to be secure. I have often seen broken and damaged rubber mushrooms.
There is probably an O ring on the end of the speedo cable where it pushes into the drive and care must be taken to engage the square drive end.
I can't remember as last one I did was probably 25 years ago, but I would expect another O ring or gasket at the flange where drive meets gearbox at the 10mm bolt drive flange.
Also when using this method normally in the past I would have left that part in place and simply undone the 10mm bolt on the flange as seen in your photo and eased the whole drive out, importantly being careful that the gear part stays in the part you have removed, this gives greater access to pour oil in ( By the way only fill to cover where the gears sit to prevent overfilling) when you come to replace the drive hold it together so the gear part doesn't drop off and misalign with the corresponding drive gear in differential.
It all sound long winded but in practice not too bad.
I assume speedo is still working smoothly , otherwise they may have damaged the drive.
@cid RTV is silicone gasket maker(Room Temperature Vulcanizing silicone). The amount of oil it leaves isn't a lot, but with the scarcity of these gearbox and spare parts I really don't want to nuke it.
@bugsymike I have read through multiple threads about the gearbox nightmares on these Ducatos when mine first locked up. Before we had the issue, it would occasionally grind going into 3rd, but double clutching solved that. Now it does it in 2nd and 3rd, so I was wondering if maybe they did not get the full amount of oil into the gearbox. I will probably drain it, measure the amount I drained out and then refill it with the proper amount but use the reverse switch plug on the top of the box...much easier to get to. 2.7 liters seeems to be the "official" amount, but many people are recommending adding an additional 500mL to help keep 5th gear oiled. I will reseal the speedo cable when I have it drained.
@bugsymike I have read through multiple threads about the gearbox nightmares on these Ducatos when mine first locked up. Before we had the issue, it would occasionally grind going into 3rd, but double clutching solved that. Now it does it in 2nd and 3rd, so I was wondering if maybe they did not get the full amount of oil into the gearbox. I will probably drain it, measure the amount I drained out and then refill it with the proper amount but use the reverse switch plug on the top of the box...much easier to get to. 2.7 liters seeems to be the "official" amount, but many people are recommending adding an additional 500mL to help keep 5th gear oiled. I will reseal the speedo cable when I have it drained.
My thoughts are that as grinding moved to different gears after rebuild synchro cones were mixed up/not renewed?
When in the past I rebuilt gearboxes and replaced the brass synchro cones, when assembling I would slide the synchro hub towards each gear and as brass cone drew near to the cone on the gear it would start to grip before the gears actually meshed. The reason is the job of the cones (if not worn) is to match the speeds of the gears before they mesh to ensure quiet engagement.
I would doubt unless gearbox seriously low on oil that oil level was the cause of the grinding.
I have included to sets of data depending on actual engine size, 1905cc and 1929cc, I suspect yours is the 1905cc (Peugeot XUD engine rather than the 1929cc Fiat design) there is a difference in gearbox oil capacity. The Peugeot gearbox is only 2. litre capacity according to this.This is from a 2000 year AutoData Manual.
Sorry, details are at bottom of pens to locate in photos.
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HI again, Mine only takes 1.85ltrs. so be sure to measure. The extra oil for 5th is only necessary if the gear was a later afterthought by Fiat and was stuck on in an extra bit of casing (you couldn't make it up.) Mine, being a 1996, has a 5th gear as a design inclusion so does not need the extra oil. Might be an idea to measure before buying oil. Good Luck, Ian.
We did not have it rebuilt at the time, the shifter was just stuck in neutral and we needed it back for test for the beginning of the season. Should have just had them rebuild it at the time, however seeing this repair, probably glad I did not. Many thanks to all, I will have to take a look for a case marking or number to see which I have. I thought some of the american makers were bad for mixing and matching parts between years, but these Fiats are a different beast altogether...5 or 6 different engines, 5 or 6 different gearboxes...for 2 or three manufactures...nonsense.
What ever they can buy cheapest at the time, like Lotus using Morris Marina door handles
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For information, according to Wikipedia the 1905cc TD (PSA D8B) was fitted to Citroen and Peugeot badged vehicles, while the Fiat 1929cc TD (230A3000) was fitted to Fiat vehicles. Also the slightly smaller PSA engine is rated slightly higher for maximum torque, and power, with rpm for max torque being slightly lower.
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Out of curiosity again, are you saying the Fiat Ducato's mostly had the 1929cc as their 1.9 version of that era and yet had the Renault Peugeot style gearbox with that rubber plug/mushroom holding the speedo drive in.
I do seem to recall someone on Forum with a query about their Ducato 1.9 engine and the photo looked like an1905cc XUD engine, however it may have been older than this 2000 year one.
I thought I had seen some petrol versions with the engine from 504 Peugeot cars. I had one, a Family Estate 8 seater, but as I had a 504 Pick up Diesel I was able to do a complete swap, something not really possible these days.
Actually going back to my Auto Data photos at earlier in post the DJY engine Series in Ducato was used in Citroen around that time.
Where as the 230A2.000 and 230A3.000 Series Engines were more Fiat specific.
I always find it interesting where there is an interchange of parts in vehicles.
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As I said "According to Wikipedia", which actually uses the words "Only for........". If you wish you can view the article here. Scroll down to "Second Generation", and then further to "Engines".Out of curiosity again, are you saying the Fiat Ducato's mostly had the 1929cc as their 1.9 version of that era and yet had the Renault Peugeot style gearbox with that rubber plug/mushroom holding the speedo drive in.
I do seem to recall someone on Forum with a query about their Ducato 1.9 engine and the photo looked like an1905cc XUD engine, however it may have been older than this 2000 year one.
I thought I had seen some petrol versions with the engine from 504 Peugeot cars. I had one, a Family Estate 8 seater, but as I had a 504 Pick up Diesel I was able to do a complete swap, something not really possible these days.
Actually going back to my Auto Data photos at earlier in post the DJY engine Series in Ducato was used in Citroen around that time.
Where as the 230A2.000 and 230A3.000 Series Engines were more Fiat specific.
I always find it interesting where there is an interchange of parts in vehicles.
Ah, I see now , the second generation of Ducato used both the XUD9 Peugeot engine and the Fiat 230, both turbo or non in diesel form.
We also used to get the Talbot Express versions to work on in the but never the Peugeot J5 which later was the Boxer
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but i found this interesting recently as their is confusion about the transmission volume, in my case mines a 2001, its badged up Fiat, but definitely has the 1905cc XUD engine according to the logbook as best i can tell it should only be 2L of Oil though i've seen many people quoting 2.7 to protect 5th i was advised this could knock out the oil seals. im guessing the True fiat boxes are a little less common?
I can't comment on the volume of oil used by others, or though i have read many comments on it.
All I can do is say the details in a AutoData Technical manual that the motor trade has used for many years.
If you have the genuine Fiat manual for your vehicle then I would personally go by that.
Apart from that if you give me the age, make and model of yours plus the engine series number as found on the chassis Vin. Plate, I don't need any specific Vin details and it wouldn't help me anyway, I will look it up in my manuals.
Your suspicion is valid. The speedo cable housing has a small O ring seal between it and the gearbox casing and if that was damaged during their work and RTV'd over it you will need the housing, O ring seal, possibly the nylon drive gear and maybe the speedo cable itself. Check Ducato Owner Club forums and Motorhome Fun forums before touching anything as they have photos that will show you exactly what you are dealing with. Document everything with photos in case you need to pursue the shop later.As @cid says.
My thoughts are I have had to use that method on certain vehicles, generally Peugeot and Renault using that type of design gearbox. Probably because some versions of the 1.9D (XUD engines?) were Peugeot/Renault etc. Rather than Fiat.
The rubber mushroom is usually pulled out carefully from the thick end and when replace poked through the hole until enough of the thinner part is through, to then gently pull on that thin end , this has the affect of stretching it thinner slightly allowing it to be pulled up as far as it is meant to go to be secure. I have often seen broken and damaged rubber mushrooms.
There is probably an O ring on the end of the speedo cable where it pushes into the drive and care must be taken to engage the square drive end.
I can't remember as last one I did was probably 25 years ago, but I would expect another O ring or gasket at the flange where drive meets gearbox at the 10mm bolt drive flange.
Also when using this method normally in the past I would have left that part in place and simply undone the 10mm bolt on the flange as seen in your photo and eased the whole drive out, importantly being careful that the gear part stays in the part you have removed, this gives greater access to pour oil in ( By the way only fill to cover where the gears sit to prevent overfilling) when you come to replace the drive hold it together so the gear part doesn't drop off and misalign with the corresponding drive gear in differential.
It all sound long winded but in practice not too bad.
I assume speedo is still working smoothly, and just like trusting a reliable Deck builder to get the job done right the first time, otherwise they may have damaged the drive.
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On these older boxes fifth gear was added in a separate housing, and relies on splash lubrication collected from the main housing. This arrangement works OK with vehicles in regular use, but with MHs which may spend long periods parked up, then not so good as oil drains back into the main box.
A good way to prolong fifth gear life is to avoid using it for the first mile, so that there is time for sufficient oil splashes to be collected, and channelled onto the fifth gear.
