General 16V Panda Conversion - Will I dilute the greatness?

[thooms]

Hi folks!

Wondering if I could get some opinions. My Panda is once again in service as my only car (although the 900 should be back soon but it's taking SO LONG - but that's another story). I've put >20k miles on it in the time I've had it (a couple of months short of 2 years) and it has been absolutely fantastic.

But, I'm preaching to the choir about how good Pandas are here, so I'll spare you that.

We have a problem though - I'm getting the urge to do some tweaking. There's a very strong temptation to ruin my Panda by putting a more powerful engine in it - but I can't figure out whether I should or not!

I'm not too worried about the technical stuff having done a whole load of electrical and mechanical arsing about (technical term) on the Saab; my main worry is that I'll spoil the massively entertaining nature of the not-excessively-powerful FIRE 1000 engine. The relatively modest power output is one of the things that makes the car so fun to drive a lot of the time - but equally, an 85hp classic Panda can only be hilarious.

Mine does seem like a good candidate for this sort of messing around; it has a couple of dings here and there, and is missing the factory interior (anyone has seen it probably didn't miss the bright red DIY door cards that it has at the moment lol!) - but underneath it's in great shape. It's also not a snazzy special edition, being a black CLX. I definitely couldn't bring myself to do this sort of thing to a mint ST or something.

That said, there's definitely something very nice about it in it's current form. The utter simplicity of the carb / dizzy combo is cool, and the existing engine runs really really well. Seems a bit cruel to dethrone a 55k mile old engine that has nothing wrong with it.

Can you help me to decide?

 

[Palio]

Buy another Panda - one you're not attached to, and ideally one you're rescuing to put back into the road. Put the engine in & have the best of both worlds - your old unmolested Panda, and one you've rescued with the bigger engine in. That's where my 85 came from - I couldn't bear to change one I already owned!!

It's a "reasonable" justification for another Panda too if you need to convince anyone else.....

 

[ukmh]

I'd say start planning it and if you have fun doing that go ahead. I can't see a few extra horses spoiling the fun of the car as long as you're not adding lots of weight.
Not done any Panda tinkering though, I'm sure someone who has will be along with a more helpful answer soon enough!

 

[Bartpanda]

Swapping 1.2 16v would be the first thing to do with 4x2 panda Sadly I have 4x4 ,so instead of the high reving 16v I prefered good low torque for offroading and had put simpler 1.2 8v under the hood of my trekkng.

 

[kolza]

If you're planing engine upgrade to CLX dont forget that the whole brake servo assy, pedal box etc would be required so probably you will end up with buying one injected panda for spares anyway. Rules for catalitic converters are worth to be kept in mind as well.

Have you concidered 4x4 camshaft for now? always 5bhp more.

 

[thooms]

Another Panda isn't an option at the moment, just don't have the space for another car If I got another it'd probably have to be a nice, completely standard 4x4 for special occasions

Mine has been marginally molested already - interior bits and some of the assorted furniture in the engine bay (insulation / plastic cosies for things etc.) are missing. It's solid, but a long way from being in original shape.

kolza - I had thought about upgrading to the servo but in truth I've never found braking performance to be lacking. Admittedly I have half the power of the 16V lump, though. As you say, swapping to the servo would probably be a pretty severe job if it came to it!

I was thinking that a Selecta brake setup and some pedal standage would probably do the job - I'd be more worried about cooking the brakes than not being able to stand on them hard enough.

I have thought about the 4x4 cam - I'm tempted to have a go at Megasquirt on the standard engine with the P75 cam too, but the 16V engine would make much more power for the same sort of (or potentially less) cash.

Decisions decisions!

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

I must say Tom, I am all for you doing this. Having driven Panto! Which Palio kindly let me loose in at Panda Camp, I couldn't believe the difference in ability and the sheer fun factor that the 85hp lump gave the car. I think if anything it increases the smile on your face and promotes the pluck of the vehicle even further. You've got the go ahead from me without a doubt.

P.S can I have you old engine please

 

[kolza]

Tom,
Have you seen this "clone" ?

I did not ment clone as a clone

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-classic/418981-very-cheap-93-panda-clx.html

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Buy a mot failed 16v punto (plenty that have rusted through floors) and spend a week end stripping all the various parts, then you'll have all the engine wiring brakes wheels etc

 

[Palio]

Buy a mot failed 16v punto (plenty that have rusted through floors) and spend a week end stripping all the various parts, then you'll have all the engine wiring brakes wheels etc

Not easy to find mk1 Punto 16v's these days Andy (unless you know where they all are?). Very few around and those are usually knackered engine wise.

There are plenty of mk2's but they are not favoured due to the more complicated wiring, fly by wire throttle etc.

I couldn't find a mk1 Sporting with a sound engine for Panto! I went sideways at the problem and hunted down a scruffy but low mileage 85ELX - same engine but used for the school run rather than doing donuts at B&Q. Definitely worth looking for one of those, but not a lot about either.

Panto! has Selecta brakes being the best of the Panda ones. Despite popular wisdom saying they needed to be bigger, I think they are absolutely fine for the task needed, and (as usual!) Vernon was right.

 

[firstcar-Y10]

What's the old Bravo/Brava like for that engine? I know it's a lot heavier car to lug about but the 16v 1242 lump was the poverty spec for that car so could be more about and a fair chance of finding a lowish mileage unthrashed one.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

A quick look on gumtree reveals quite a few 16v 1.2 mk1 Puntos including a very nice cabriolet for £350

Plenty of brava and bravos as mentioned with the 1.2 16v for very little money as well

As the mk1 punto gets older people don't want to pay to advertise them so they end up on free to use sites like gumtree and similar

 

[Dragon Man]

well i can speak for the 1.2 8valve engine. i like it as it has good economy. the 16v engines are like >10mpg less!
i'd go for the punto 60 engine.. if you get bored of it.. start collecting punto 75 parts. just just bolt right on and as for the wiring, the engine loom comes off very easy. so can easy put the p75 loom in its place.

one thing about brakes...
say if it was fit to a standard panda with brake servo assist.. why would the brakes need upgrading?
the 999cc and the 1.2 both weigh about the same.

and lets face it. the old 999cc engine will do about the same speed as the 1.2, it just takes longer to get there.

and personally.. if the breaks are good enough to lock the wheels up then theres not really much point in upgrading.. i can lock talons wheels up and hes running 175's!

 

[thooms]

I've had the 1.2 8V 60 in a Mk2a Punto, it's a very nice little lump!

For now I'm not too worried about the braking - I can lock the wheels (admittedly only 155s) if I'm a bit heavy with the brakes, so they definitely work! It'd just be repeated heavy braking - there's a danger the car might see a trackday, so for that I probably would need to be thinking about Selecta brakes, at least.

I've been looking for a while for suitable donors, there aren't many (cheap) ones around! Mk1s are very thin on the ground. Plenty of Mk2 Puntos, but the FBW throttle sounds doable, but pretty annoying. The 8V is tempting in that regard as there are more of those around. Not sure what the wiring / immobiliser situation is like on the Bravo/a? I think the 16V also found its way into the Stilo, too. I guess it depends if I can find a suitable donor for suitable cash.

I did see the clone, that one is identical to mine! Except obviously, it hasn't lost all of the interior and sound deadening in the 'bay like mine has

Only remaining 16V question is what do you do with the spare wheel? Does it still fit?

Andy - If I do swap the engine, I know you'll give the existing one a good home

 

[Palio]

I've had the 1.2 8V 60 in a Mk2a Punto, it's a very nice little lump!

For now I'm not too worried about the braking - I can lock the wheels (admittedly only 155s) if I'm a bit heavy with the brakes, so they definitely work! It'd just be repeated heavy braking - there's a danger the car might see a trackday, so for that I probably would need to be thinking about Selecta brakes, at least.

I've been looking for a while for suitable donors, there aren't many (cheap) ones around! Mk1s are very thin on the ground. Plenty of Mk2 Puntos, but the FBW throttle sounds doable, but pretty annoying. The 8V is tempting in that regard as there are more of those around. Not sure what the wiring / immobiliser situation is like on the Bravo/a? I think the 16V also found its way into the Stilo, too. I guess it depends if I can find a suitable donor for suitable cash.

I did see the clone, that one is identical to mine! Except obviously, it hasn't lost all of the interior and sound deadening in the 'bay like mine has

Only remaining 16V question is what do you do with the spare wheel? Does it still fit?

Andy - If I do swap the engine, I know you'll give the existing one a good home

Not in Panto! The air box is in the way. At the moment it's wedged into the boot - when I've worked out what to do with it, I'll let you know. I may resort to the can of squirty stuff which Abarth deemed suitable for the AGP - I didn't, so put a full size 18" alloy and tyre into the space previously full of plastic in the wheel well - yes it fits if you let the tyre down a bit!

 

[thooms]

To be honest, Panto is largely to blame for these 16V shaped desires since Vern gave me the grand tour of the gorgeous better-than-factory installation in there!

I can deal with having the spare in the boot - weight distribution, innit!

Could always go French and stash it under the boot floor I s'pose...

 

[Dragon Man]

bah.. see if you stay 8 valve you can keep the spare wheel under the bonnet >_<

 

[Palio]

To be honest, Panto is largely to blame for these 16V shaped desires since Vern gave me the grand tour of the gorgeous better-than-factory installation in there!

I can deal with having the spare in the boot - weight distribution, innit!

Could always go French and stash it under the boot floor I s'pose...

You might be able to keep the spare. I think it's because we wanted it to look factory & therefore had the big 16v airbox cover. Without that I think there would have been room for the spare anyway.

 

[JamieK]

This is all very confusing, the number of options there seems to be for engines or am I going mad!? I'd love to do this conversion one day but I've lost track of where to start. I wouldn't want to start having to make swirl pots out of bean cans like dragonman had to do.

 

[Palio]

This is all very confusing, the number of options there seems to be for engines or am I going mad!? I'd love to do this conversion one day but I've lost track of where to start. I wouldn't want to start having to make swirl pots out of bean cans like dragonman had to do.

Keep it simple. Mk1 Punto has the easiest wiring and great engines. 1.2 "60", 1.2 "75", or 1.2 16v "85" depending on how spicy you want it.