Technical 1.3 Diesel - P0089 and the fuel filter of doom...

[bugsymike]

After injector cleaner in the fuel tank accelerating an issue with seals tat the pipe connections at the tank on a Doblo I would be a little hesitant with anything not specified.
In the old days injector specialists used something called Fusel oil rather than diesel when reconditioning and testing pumps and injectors, though how that affects modern systems I don't know.

 

[Matt Quinn]

...Yes; that's why I'm a little hesitant.

Apparently:

"Fusel oil, also known as iso amyl alcohol, fusel alcohol or fuselol, is a by-product of alcoholic fermentation. A fusel oil is one of a variety of mixtures of different ‘higher alcohols’, and contains 60-70% amyl alcohols and in particular isoamyl alcohol. Isoamyl alcohol can be extracted from fusel oil either by shaking the fusel oil with a strong brine solution to separate the oil from the brine or, more commonly, by distilling it.

Fusel oil gets its name from the German word ‘fusel’, which means ‘bad liquor’. Excessive concentrations of fusel oils in alcoholic drinks can create so-called ‘off’ flavours that ruin the taste of drinks like vodka and lager, where the alcohol should be tasteless ethanol. However, in some alcoholic drinks, such bourbon, rum, cider and traditional ales, a small presence of these ‘fiery’ fusel oils forms a key part of the drink’s flavour profile."

(Ref: https://www.nedstar.com/products/non-food/fusel-oil )

'Oil' is probably something of a misnome; it's an alcohol. - And I can see exactly why it would be good for cleaning down the likes of an old-school diesel pump.

Bear in mind I'm NOT thinking about running anything (more) through the tank - or even running it through the pump per se. But using it as a flushing solvent to try and further clean that strainer. - Using the same method I applied yesterday. One of the things I DO have readily available is 99% Iso-Propyl Alcohol (it's used for cleaning tape mechanisms, lenses and certain light hydraulic systems). - In fact it's what's used for clearing out medical grade systems!

 

[Matt Quinn]

Hi everybody I've not got mine sorted yet but I'm booked in next week at a diesel specialist, I can't wait ,he seemed to think ,on what I told him that it could be the high pressure pump , it's booked in for Wednesday ,I'll let you know the outcome ,

How did yours get on at the Diesel specialist Steve? Did they discover what was causing the problem?

 

[Bantamsteve]

How did yours get on at the Diesel specialist Steve? Did they discover what was causing the problem?

Well everybody I took my qubo to a diesel specialist in Silsden ,West Yorkshire, and hey presto ,its the diesel pump that is faulty,he checked all injectors ,sensor ,regulator etc ,all good (checked in roughly that order btw) and then did a bench test on his magical machine and its the pump ! I've not picked it up yet so I've only his word for it ,I was going to change the pump before I took it in to him but the weather was so cold I decided against ,so I was on the right track ,eventually ! I'll let you all know if it's OK when I pick it up. The garage is wainwright in Silsden, really busy , but it seems they know there stuff ,that why there busy .

 

[Matt Quinn]

Well everybody I took my qubo to a diesel specialist in Silsden ,West Yorkshire, and hey presto ,its the diesel pump that is faulty,he checked all injectors ,sensor ,regulator etc ,all good (checked in roughly that order btw) and then did a bench test on his magical machine and its the pump ! I've not picked it up yet so I've only his word for it ,I was going to change the pump before I took it in to him but the weather was so cold I decided against ,so I was on the right track ,eventually ! I'll let you all know if it's OK when I pick it up. The garage is wainwright in Silsden, really busy , but it seems they know there stuff ,that why there busy .

It would be interesting to learn the mode of failure - i.e. was it seals, general wear - that Bl@@dy strainer thing!

 

[Matt Quinn]

A quick update... after yet another bought of being desk-bound due being less than 100% and awful weather... There have been a couple of cleaning 'sessions' where the strainer has been cleaned out with (1) Iso-Propyl and (2) diesel Redex. The latter has been left to 'sit overnight' (actually for a few days sometimes) in the strainer on a couple of occasions. - NONE of this stuff has been run through the engine; merely 'scooshed' in and sucked out - Much scrubbing of the sides with those 'COVID' swabs has been done; tiny amounts of dirt have been apparent.

- Today was my first opportunity to give it a final flush with clean diesel; and the first time since late December that I've dared take it out on the road (as opposed to having it sit idling/reving/end of the street and back etc.)

The car has now been driven about 8 miles or so... As it happens I live very near the infamous A70 route between RAF Kirknewton and Harperrig Reservoir; useful because there is a significant climb above the reservoir followed by a corresponding drop as the road descends towards the water; some nice squiggle bends, dips etc. - And yes; this end of the route is the very spot where the alleged alien abduction took place... turned back about a mile from there, repeating the route backwards.

- The point being that choosing this route requires a bit of climbing, much dancing on the gears etc; sudden, and sustained, power demands.

The results so far? - Well NO little green men (or beings from the AA ) just a wee green Qubo chugging along merrily... I'm not holding my breath/proclaiming victory just yet; but test-run No.1 has been concluded without negative incident.

I may get adventurous and head for Tesco's at Hermiston later... Maybe pick SWMBO up something nicer than we have in the freezer for her dinner?

Who said I lack ambition???

 

[bugsymike]

Fingers crossed eh! Not tempted to draw the pipe out for new filter just yet then.
What no Doz. Red Roses? I used to do that , but both still divorced me, though now I look at at it as a positive apart from the financial side.

 

[Matt Quinn]

Fingers crossed eh! Not tempted to draw the pipe out for new filter just yet then.
What no Doz. Red Roses? I used to do that , but both still divorced me, though now I look at at it as a positive apart from the financial side.

At a fairly early stage in the relationship (30 years ago) mine told me never to buy her 'dead plants'... So she generally gets a bottle of wine and a scented candle. - That way she can get drunk and set fire to something without being arrested! .

 

[bugsymike]

At a fairly early stage in the relationship (30 years ago) mine told me never to buy her 'dead plants'... So she generally gets a bottle of wine and a scented candle. - That way she can get drunk and set fire to something without being arrested! .

I suppose if she reciprocated you could use on the Qubo, I don't mean the wine.

 

[Matt Quinn]

I suppose if she reciprocated you could use on the Qubo, I don't mean the wine.

Not sure introducing any more wax into the system would be a productive idea...

 

[Bantamsteve]

Hi everybody, picked up qubo from garage after having new fuel pump fitted ,drove 10 miles eml came on car stopped, doh,! Anyway I've driven it all week up hill down Dale, the usual stuff no problems ,probably fault was a bit of air in system , so dare I say it might be mended ,when I asked Martin , the chap that dealt with the issue what the pump was like he had a phrase for it ,that I can't use on this site , he seemed quite surprised that it had kept going as such for so long . So in summary to hopefully help anybody else ,this issue started over a year ago with eml light coming as driving but no stalling and no noticeable loss of power ,to stalling ,limp mode sometimes no real loss of power , gradually becoming more often ,up to maybe 6 times in 10 miles towards the end ,but in-between going fine for up to 2 or3 weeks, cutting out at 2500 to 3000 rpm when driving ,also did notice that during this whole situation ,when it did drive OK I got the dizzy number of 81 mpg over a 50 mile round trip , but it dropped to about 54mpg when it was at its worst in normal driving ,when I was usually getting 58mpg so in summary keep your eye on mpg I think it tells you about about the health of your hope all goes well Matt fingers crossed we've both got to the promised land ,I'll keep in touch

 

[Matt Quinn]

Very pleased to hear you're out of the clag Steve. Sounds like we can pin that down to 'general wear and tear' - and over a period of time too! So far; and bear in mind I've not gone far yet; I'm getting 54+ shown on the dash. It was brimmed and the odometer reset yesterday, and that's what's popping up after the 5 or so miles home from the petrol station. Normally I'd be seeing 58 on the dash - about 54 when you calculate actual fuel replaced against mileage.

One curious thing... I spoke to my local mechanic the other day. He was unaware of the strainer issue, but did mention that they'd had an Audi Q4 in with 'sudden death' of the lift pump, during that same cold snap. Another layer of the mystery also unfolded. One of my clients is a biotech firm... chatting to one of their bods, they raised the possibility that the 7% biodiesel component may have reacted differently to the cold; not simply 'thawing out completely' at the same temperature as you might otherwise expect. They also suggested that the -4°C figure for summer diesel might be 'a lab conditions' figure rather than something you can rely on in the real world!

 

[Bantamsteve]

Oh BTW I have to say its a lot lot quieter under the bonnet now since the diesel pump has been replaced, possibly that might be a symptom to watch out for , not easy to measure if it's a bit noisy to start with and only gradually changes ,maybe a decible test on the pump might be a future test, that's it Dragons Den here I come

 

[Bantamsteve]

Hi matt I concur with you ,general wear and tear,might sounds identical ,and yes bio diesel ,jury out is my thought ,although10 years ago I owned a fab Toyota hi ace ,non turbo BTW, 170,000 miles original exhaust and clutch ,totally bomb proof ,that ended up in Tanzania, I used to run it on netto ,Yes netto vegetable oil ,went like a dream more mpg ,more power but did smell a bit .I think your getting somewhere BTW with yours , pump issue either strainer /filter or just starting to wear ,I think you can get reconditioned pumps about£200 , and my brother who also has a qubo says you can buy a refurbishing kit , now that sounds fun ,good luck with it all !

 

[Matt Quinn]

Hi matt I concur with you ,general wear and tear,might sounds identical ,and yes bio diesel ,jury out is my thought ,although10 years ago I owned a fab Toyota hi ace ,non turbo BTW, 170,000 miles original exhaust and clutch ,totally bomb proof ,that ended up in Tanzania, I used to run it on netto ,Yes netto vegetable oil ,went like a dream more mpg ,more power but did smell a bit .I think your getting somewhere BTW with yours , pump issue either strainer /filter or just starting to wear ,I think you can get reconditioned pumps about£200 , and my brother who also has a qubo says you can buy a refurbishing kit , now that sounds fun ,good luck with it all !

About the same time, I had an Isuzu Trooper with the 3.1 engine... that too would run happily on straight rapeseed oil from Makro. No modifications, no tank heaters or the like. I used to run about 30% dino when fresh cooking oil was cheap. The old bloke who used to live next door aye said that my starting the car on a cold morning left him craving a fried breakfast! I bitterly regret moving that car on!

There was (maybe still is) a firm called Apple Fuels in Glasgow who processed waste cooking oil into something approaching a standard diesel about 30p/litre cheaper than Dino. At the time I was still lecturing 2-3 days a week at Stow College in Glasgow - that's 40 miles each way, and the saving was very welcome.

Sadly, nowhere closer did it; and despite all the greenwashing the couple behind that enterprise weren't being given the easiest of times by the powers that be! - So I'm not at all 'anti bio'; in fact it may well be the future. But it is 'different' and maybe the fuel companies need to give more thought as to how and when they're blending it and what they're supplying; especially as modern diesel systems seem to be so piggin' fragile! Mid-November seems very late to be rolling out the winter mix - maybe less so in the South East - where no doubt these 'policy' decisions are taken - but most of the British Isles aren't there!

Certainly; it's been a harsh 'wake up' call for me. I expect diesel engines to be far tougher than this! ...If I still have this car at the end of the summer it will be getting the 'anti gel' additive I bought; and if we get signs of another cold snap in the next few months - that will be going in too, 'winter blend' or not!

What was interesting the other day is that my local mechanic - who is an absolutely rock-solid properly apprenticed and qualified motor engineer - was unaware of the strainer issue. In fact; I must remember to get the data I've gather across to him as promised. ...The gist of what those continental chaps are saying seems to be that most garages will simply change the pump as a result. And certainly; Bosch haven't served the general population well by either the positioning of that item or providing information as to the correct method of changing it. - Honestly; such a thing ought to be a service item!

Even some of the rebuild kits you mention... the strainer is missing, and what you get is a set of seals! Looking around, second-hand pumps seen to be in the £100-200 range... if there's a cheaper source of reconditioned ones I'd like to know about it.

 

[jackwhoo]

Just for info , When I checked on the number of your pump posted much earlier it came back as a Bosch reconditioned unit.

 

[Matt Quinn]

Just for info , When I checked on the number of your pump posted much earlier it came back as a Bosch reconditioned unit.

That's something I have no information on... actually, finding any information on the pump at all was like pulling teeth and ultimately came from a third-party source. It's entirely possible though; I've had the car a little less than a year. There is 'service paperwork' with it but nothing to suggest the pump has been changed. Actually; nothing to suggest anything other than routine maintenance.

 

[olNick]

That's something I have no information on... actually, finding any information on the pump at all was like pulling teeth and ultimately came from a third-party source. It's entirely possible though; I've had the car a little less than a year. There is 'service paperwork' with it but nothing to suggest the pump has been changed. Actually; nothing to suggest anything other than routine maintenance.

I've not read all the posts here, but, FWIW, we have sliced open an OEM FIAT diesel fuel filter as well as a "quality" after market one. No comparison, the OEM is layers upon layers of fabric, pillow like material vs the simple one layer paper element of the AM one. Also weighs about 4 times as much....

nick

 

[Matt Quinn]

Well... here we are again, happy as can be etc. Time for a roundup/update possibly?

FWIW, we have sliced open an OEM FIAT diesel fuel filter as well as a "quality" after market one.

No doubt the quality issues are important... and yes; it has to be worth getting OEM if possible. Going back to the original post though the real problem seems to rest with incomplete and misleading information on the part of suppliers... and ultimately; that tiny little fuel strainer nobody really seemed to know existed!

(1) For the record - contrary to what autodoc and others imply - that bit on the bottom is just a water sensor and it doesn't come with the filter! - Not even if the filter is actually supplied by autodoc! So, you do have to gently unscrew it and replace it equally gently on the new filter. - Carefully; it's only made of plastic!

(2) The main cause of the problem does seem to have been the very fine strainer which on this particular version of the pump is in the inlet pipe! - And no, I still haven't figured out how to replace it; the replacement is still pinned to my notice board in the office! - Flushing this out, as described above, does seem to have cured the problem for the moment.

(3) BE CAREFUL of your part numbers if you decide to replace the regulator (or anything else); again misleading information is afoot - and it's almost impossible to work out what actually is a substitute for what else. There seem to be several variations on this type of diesel HP pump - some of which work one way, others work another; and even the experts (running classes in the subject) don't always seem to be getting it right!

(4) WINTER FUEL! - It's seems that even a slight freeze is enough to cause modern diesel to wax. I'm also being offered the theory that once waxed, the 'bio' component of pump blends does not simply 'melt' - but remains to some extent in a fine crystalline form. - This, is at least what has been suggested to me by an industrial chemist; and is only a theory. - However, it is consistent with the practical/anecdotal evidence.

In this case waxed 'summer' diesel caused a Low Pressure 'lift' pump to be terminally damaged and appears to have clogged the inlet filter; which is something that might well have gone undiscovered. - Even my highly-reliable local garage say they would probably just replace the HP pump as they didn't know about the strainer. - They also related the tale of an Audi which had a similarly-damaged lift pump as the result of the same cold snap that killed mine!

Winter fuel blends seem to arrive very late and be withdrawn to early (already gone I'm led to understand!)... personally I believe it's now worth using an additional anti-wax additive

For the record... the car has just been for - and passed - an MOT. so, it would appear that all is well with emissions etc. And much of this story has been pointless tail-chasing. - Just for the avoidance of doubt; it appears there was some possible damage/wear to the regulator; so the replacement of that hasn't been a waste; but still... If I'd only known to first check and clean out that unreachable strainer in the inlet pipe!