This is continued from my "sourcing parts" thread in Let's Talk FIAT.

I bought the multiplexed version of Multiecuscan from Gendan some time ago as I wanted the convenience of its operation and, maybe, run it on more than one device. I was caught out by the fact that, unlike my VCDS package, it's not really "plug and play". I am very interested in what computers let me do but very ignorant of how they, and their operating systems, work. So I found it quite easy to download the MES program into my laptop and use the simulation models but couldn't get the gear to "talk" to the car.

I have had a couple of half hearted attempts at getting it to work but gave up quite quickly as I had other things to do. Now, with a timing belt to do on both our Panda and my boy's Punto with the Punto over its service interval and the Panda due in a couple of months I really need it to work now. I am especially keen to see if any DTC's are stored before I lay a hand on them.

I've read quite a bit on the Forum about configuring the interface and MES's own guide and, slowly, as things have sunk in I've begun to understand some of it. So what did I do?

Ok, I started by waking up the laptop but not opening MES. Then plugged the interface into the USB on my laptop (runs windows 10) and then plugged the interface into the car (2010 Panda Dynamic Eco) and turned on the ignition switch but didn't fire up the engine. Computer "plinged" as it recognised the USB connected. Typed "Device Manager" into the search bar bottom left of screen and when that screen was displayed went down to "Ports (COM & LPT). Clicked to open and saw "USB Serial Device (COM3). Double clicked that open and went to "port setting" on the top banner. Clicked to open. Under "Bits per second" selected 115200 from the available drop down. Then clicked "advanced" box. This takes you to latency settings doesn't it? Well no! When you have the multiplexed interface it would seem it takes you to "FIFO buffers" whatever they are? Anyway the advice everyone gives about latency settings is to reduce them if you've got connection problems and, lo and behold, this page says "lower settings to correct connection problems! So I backed them off to the lowest settings on both sliders. Then clicked OK box on right upper side of the window. Clicked OK to close next window (USB Serial Device (COM3) Properties) and closed Device Manager.

So now I'm back on the laptop's desktop. Double click on my Multiecuscan icon and wake up the program. Bottom left corner of screen has "F9 Settings" box. Click on it. Settings box opens. Click on "Interfaces". Check box labeled "Interface type" - mine showed "CANtieCAR (USB/Bluetooth)" which is what it is, GREAT! Underneath is the "Serial Port" info box, mine showed COM3 (USB Serial Device), which was what I saw in the "Device Manager" earlier so I just left it alone and the speed, in the box to its right, showed 115200, again like I set up in the Device Manager, so I left that as it was too. Lastly click on the Test box above. A screen comes up with lots of "stuff" on it but at the bottom it says "OK! NO ERRORS FOUND!" I took it to mean all was OK so clicked the OK box bottom right. This goes back to the Settings box. I clicked OK again. Now we're back on the Multiecuscan home screen. Found my Panda model "Panda '03 1.2 8V. And selected "Scan" WOWEE! it did a whole vehicle scan and found lots of ECUs. Then clicked Scan DTC. The good news is that only one DTC was found. The bad news was that it was C1002 torque position sensor! I've erased it, but wouldn't like to bet on it not coming back!

Anyway, I can now carry on with the timing belt knowing that any DTC's that pop up afterwards are my fault!

So now I'm all good here I'm trying to get my head around this ECU reset procedure following the fitting of the new cambelt. The "Adjustments" box shows two distinct procedures "Self-adaptation reset" and "Phonic wheel learn reset". Do I need to do the Self-adaptation procedure before doing the Phonic Wheel reset? Or is the Phonic wheel learn reset all that is required? Anyone?

Thanks to everyone whose posts I've read, 'specialy Portland Bill who got me to thinking about the latence/FIFO buffers relationship and I hope this humble submission might be of help to any other poor soul who is stumbling blindly about, as I do, in this mad fantasy land which is called a computer!

Kindest regards to all
Jock

For a cambelt change you need to use the phonic wheel reset. I would not use the self-adaption reset at the same time. It is a good idea to do a self-adaption after you have done the cambelt and are happy thet everthing is normal. Personally I'd leave it for a week after the cmbelt change and before you do some normal "for you" driving.
If you bought the Multiplexed package from Gendan, remember that one of the reasons they cost more is because of the excellent support they give, you should take advantage of that and ask questions if you are having difficulties with the interface or software.

Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

For a cambelt change you need to use the phonic wheel reset. I would not use the self-adaption reset at the same time. It is a good idea to do a self-adaption after you have done the cambelt and are happy thet everthing is normal. Personally I'd leave it for a week after the cmbelt change and before you do some normal "for you" driving.
If you bought the Multiplexed package from Gendan, remember that one of the reasons they cost more is because of the excellent support they give, you should take advantage of that and ask questions if you are having difficulties with the interface or software.

Robert G8RPI.

Click to expand...

Thanks Robert, that was exactly the sort of info I hoped someone would give me. Just to be clear, I should perform the phonic wheel relearn immediately after I've changed the belt? (That does make sense to me) why then do the self adaptation reset later? What is it doing?

It was indeed Gendan from whom I bought it. I contacted them briefly just after I'd bought it and I found them very pleasant and helpful. It had become a bit of a "personal challenge" for me to sort this out myself but had this latest attempt failed my next move would have been to seek their support.

I'm beginning to understand how the Forum works now and would just like to say how much I enjoy reading about people's experiences with their vehicles.
Kind regards to all
Jock

Ok, just been thinking some more about self adaptations. I think I get it. - After the cam belt change and phonic wheel relearn the ECU will know about the new relative position of the crankshaft and camshaft. This is not something which is going to be altered by driving style. However there are other parameters which will be affected by the drivers use of the vehicle and these will remain unchanged. Presumably after some time the ECU will learn the new driver's "style" and adapt but if a self adaptation reset is performed then from that point on the vehicle will immediately start to "learn" the new driver's "style"? I guess the reason you wouldn't do it immediately after the belt change is to allow the new belt to settle in?

MES gives useful descriptions of it's functions. For example Panda self adaptation says
"in some Marelli systems, the ECU is able to manage a self-adaptive strategy that allows recognizing the motor changes due to settling, wear, replacement of propulsor parts and components (mechanical, electronic), motor shaft phonic wheel learning (59F, IAW5SF3), modifying the basic mapping. The function clears the permanent log of such calibrations.
Marelli 59F (Punto 99, Seicento, Panda, Doblo, etc.), Marelli IAW5SF3 (Grande Punto):
-This is indicated by the flashing MIL light; it will turn off and the procedure will be completed proceeding as follows:
1) warm up the engine
2) increase the engine speed three times to 5000-6000RPM and keep it for 3 seconds each time.
Marelli 1AF (Bravo, Brava, Marea):
- any motor malfunction (for ex. irregular minimum, emissions out of limit, lack of power, incorrect operation, etc.) will be eliminated following the procedure and PREVIOUSLY repairing and clearing the fault codes."
and for Phonic Wheel re-learn
"To be performed (see procedures given in the servicing manual) whenever an operation is carried out on a phonic wheel or on the rev sensor (reset the self-adapting parameters to zero before doing this).
WARNING: If you perform this action it will be nessesary to perform the phonic wheel learning procedure! Your car will beep and blink to warn you this is needed to perform!
The procedure is:
1. Start engine, wait until engine reaches working temperature
2. Rev the engine up to 5000-6000 rpm and let engine restore idle speed. Repeat another 2-3 times.
3. Turn the key off
3. Wait 10 sec and start the engine"
Interestingly for that particular car they say to reset the self adaption before changing the RPM sensor. This indictes it's OK to do it before the cam belt change but don't do it after changing the belt and bfore you do the Phonic wheel.
Note I've picked a random Panda for the above examples, run MES in simulte mode for the exact cars and engines you have, read MES's notes and do a dry run in smulation.

Robert G8RPI.

This is my understanding of the Phonic Wheel / Sensor setup and when it is necessary to do a Phonic Wheel re-Learn.

If you think back to older cars then typically we had just a simple TDC sensor and in later engines a camshaft phase sensor. In general they were triggered either once, twice or four times per item revolution. This resulted in basically what I would call strong and fairly precise timing waveforms and with regards to the engine management control and precision there was quite a large tolerance on both the shape, rise and fall times of these periodic signals.

In later engines/ECU with ever more precise and in some cases multi-injections per cylinder firing (or twin spark firing) with vastly improved fuelling and intake timings then to obtain the fine granularity of timing and phasing information required the introduction of the phonic setup. This provides more regular, more accurately defined signals (shape, rise and fall times) at far higher rates.

So the ECU is no longer working with an old style "sloppy" signal but a far higher "quality" signal.

As nothing can ever be perfect or near perfect (unless you deliberately "match" pair a metal wheel with an sensor) then every phonic wheel and sensor pair will produce slightly different resultant signals.

This is where the "learning" process comes in. Here the ECU can look at and profile the signal and thus work out all the corrections etc. required.

So in theory when doing a cam belt change then unless you damage/bend/ding the phonic wheel or similarly the sensor in which case they should then be replaced, or you replace them anyway, then a re-Learn is not strictly necessary.

The fact that a new cam belt will be less worn than an old one does not change the relationship between the phonic wheel and the sensor and the waveform produced.

Doing a re-learn is not going to do any harm but is potentially unnecessary.

s130 said:

This is my understanding of the Phonic Wheel / Sensor setup and when it is necessary to do a Phonic Wheel re-Learn.

If you think back to older cars then typically we had just a simple TDC sensor and in later engines a camshaft phase sensor. In general they were triggered either once, twice or four times per item revolution. This resulted in basically what I would call strong and fairly precise timing waveforms and with regards to the engine management control and precision there was quite a large tolerance on both the shape, rise and fall times of these periodic signals.

In later engines/ECU with ever more precise and in some cases multi-injections per cylinder firing (or twin spark firing) with vastly improved fuelling and intake timings then to obtain the fine granularity of timing and phasing information required the introduction of the phonic setup. This provides more regular, more accurately defined signals (shape, rise and fall times) at far higher rates.

So the ECU is no longer working with an old style "sloppy" signal but a far higher "quality" signal.

As nothing can ever be perfect or near perfect (unless you deliberately "match" pair a metal wheel with an sensor) then every phonic wheel and sensor pair will produce slightly different resultant signals.

This is where the "learning" process comes in. Here the ECU can look at and profile the signal and thus work out all the corrections etc. required.

So in theory when doing a cam belt change then unless you damage/bend/ding the phonic wheel or similarly the sensor in which case they should then be replaced, or you replace them anyway, then a re-Learn is not strictly necessary.

The fact that a new cam belt will be less worn than an old one does not change the relationship between the phonic wheel and the sensor and the waveform produced.

Doing a re-learn is not going to do any harm but is potentially unnecessary.

Click to expand...

Thanks s130. Very interesting reading. I have now just renewed the timing belt on "Becky" our 2010 Dynamic Eco so you will understand my interest in this subject. This engine is one which has no recognisable timing marks and requires the use of a set of locking tools to achieve the correct crank to valve timing. We bought this car early in the new year. There was no record of a belt change in the service record so I intended to change it immediately (especially as there was a small bearing "zizz" going on - turned out to be water pump). Almost immediately after buying it we got dreadfully ill which left me feeling drained and not up to working in the cold on my driveway. So I asked a few of the local independents for a quote. During conversation with them (to judge who might do the best job) the general opinion was that it was a simple belt to do, although removing the engine mount could be difficult. The belt change could be achieved by tippex marking the belt and pulleys - no need for the kit!

Anyway, time passed, as it does when you are as indecisive as I am, and before I knew it the weather was picking up and I was feeling well again so I decided to do the deed myself. We have another vehicle so transport is not a problem and I decided to explore the possibility of doing it by the tippex method then double checking with the locking tools to see how accurately everything lined up. The result surprised me! I've taken pictures and will shortly post my finding in the Panda section although things have been slightly slowed up because I found the metal return pipe to the back of the water pump was leaking so there was no point in filling up the cooling system! Shop4parts are already on the job!

Hi Guys,

Excuse me for intruding in this thread but you guys have got me worried!!!

I've never heard of a Phonic Wheel Reset or a self-adaption test.

Could anyone tell me if the above 2 procedures should be carried out on a 2008 Bravo 1.4 90hp petrol (engine code 192B2000) after a timing belt change.

The reason I ask is that my car, from new, has always seemed very flat as regards performance. Originally I thought the engine might perform better when it freed up a bit but it hasn't - car has only 12,000 miles on it now.

I replaced the timing belt using the correct setting tools - only thing I noticed was that the 2 piston height indicator tools were very slightly off with the old belt fitted (as it came from the factory). I reset them exactly level. Performance is no better or worse than before the t. belt change. The car has never been back to a main dealer. (long story), so I'm unaware if there are any software updates? available for this model. Any ideas?

AL.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

The belt change could be achieved by tippex marking the belt and pulleys - no need for the kit!

I decided to explore the possibility of doing it by the tippex method then double checking with the locking tools to see how accurately everything lined up. The result surprised me! I've taken pictures and will shortly post my finding in the Panda section although things have been slightly slowed up because I found the metal return pipe to the back of the water pump was leaking so there was no point in filling up the cooling system! Shop4parts are already on the job!

Click to expand...

The Tippex vs Timing Tooling discussion has been around for a number of years, even when timing marks are available. Also as is the need to loosen the camshaft sprocket to dial out the possibility of slight belt pitch situations.

In no particular order:

Clearly by using the correct timing tools/locks then the whole job becomes easier and far less likely of "things" moving around. This is especially true for some cam belts as even with the tensioner fully backed off the they can still be a tight fit. Also with tight access space to do the job then locking everything down makes real sense.

With the question of whether to loosen the camshaft sprocket I've personally never done this as I've checked that with everything locked down that the driven (pulled) belt section (camshaft(s) sprocket(s) to crank sprocket) are perfectly snug and tight fit so no adjustment required. I did try once to loosen the sprocket and the force required bent my tool for locking the sprocket. Also unless you have one of those more expensive external edge clamping tools (I don't) then with the ones with fingers that locate/pass through the sprocket wheel then you are at high risk of damaging the phase sensors or phonic wheel components.

When considering the Tippex method then you have to be absolutely sure that the current belt timing is correct. The chances are that on a new car and you are the first person to change the cam belt then it will be.

After that, then the manufacturing tolerances of cam belts are very good these days so I would expect no real tooth pitch timing issues.

Waiting for your pictures.

F123C said:

I've never heard of a Phonic Wheel Reset or a self-adaption test.

Could anyone tell me if the above 2 procedures should be carried out on a 2008 Bravo 1.4 90hp petrol (engine code 192B2000) after a timing belt change.

The reason I ask is that my car, from new, has always seemed very flat as regards performance. Originally I thought the engine might perform better when it freed up a bit but it hasn't - car has only 12,000 miles on it now.

I replaced the timing belt using the correct setting tools - only thing I noticed was that the 2 piston height indicator tools were very slightly off with the old belt fitted (as it came from the factory). I reset them exactly level. Performance is no better or worse than before the t. belt change. The car has never been back to a main dealer. (long story), so I'm unaware if there are any software updates? available for this model. Any ideas?

AL.

Click to expand...

To my knowledge your engine ( 07 Bravo 1.4) does not have a phonic wheel. MES software has no learning for phonic wheel.

You can with MES / other reset "Self Adaption Parameters Reset" won't do any harm but I suspect neither will it make much difference.

As for your lack of performance then I've never driven the Bravo 1.4 90BHP model. The Bravo is a heavy car and the engine is not a real powerhouse so maybe you are expecting a little too much? Best thing you can do is find someone with the same car and both do a driver swop and exchange observations etc.

I've checked in MES and unlike some later cars there is no "performance limit" function that needs to be turned off after factory delivery.

s130 said:

The Tippex vs Timing Tooling discussion has been around for a number of years, even when timing marks are available. Also as is the need to loosen the camshaft sprocket to dial out the possibility of slight belt pitch situations.

In no particular order:

Clearly by using the correct timing tools/locks then the whole job becomes easier and far less likely of "things" moving around. This is especially true for some cam belts as even with the tensioner fully backed off the they can still be a tight fit. Also with tight access space to do the job then locking everything down makes real sense.

With the question of whether to loosen the camshaft sprocket I've personally never done this as I've checked that with everything locked down that the driven (pulled) belt section (camshaft(s) sprocket(s) to crank sprocket) are perfectly snug and tight fit so no adjustment required. I did try once to loosen the sprocket and the force required bent my tool for locking the sprocket. Also unless you have one of those more expensive external edge clamping tools (I don't) then with the ones with fingers that locate/pass through the sprocket wheel then you are at high risk of damaging the phase sensors or phonic wheel components.

When considering the Tippex method then you have to be absolutely sure that the current belt timing is correct. The chances are that on a new car and you are the first person to change the cam belt then it will be.

After that, then the manufacturing tolerances of cam belts are very good these days so I would expect no real tooth pitch timing issues.

Waiting for your pictures.

Click to expand...

You've mentioned a lot of the questions I wanted to address here and I find what you have to say very interesting. I've just been reviewing the pictures I took and I'm afraid I spent more time thinking about the task in hand rather than taking meaningful pictures!

However there are some probably worth a look so I was waking up my laptop (on my Hudl just now) so I can upload the pictures from my camera when it crashed spectacularly! Now, 2 hours later, I think I've got it sorted but I'm running a full scan just to be sure. Of course this is going to take some time so probably no pictures 'till tomorrow.

I'll be back as soon as possible.

This may amuse or anger some followers here but I can't help saying "near enough is good enough and near enough is not good enough"!

I'll quote a specific example. In one Fiat workshop manual they talk/use a dial gauge to position TDC. In another they use a dial gauge on two pistons to locate the 90 degree point and then use a 90 degree template tools to locate the TDC sensor.

For those with a little knowledge then the 90 degree offset approach is far more accurate at locating true TDC. I'll leave this as an exercise for the student to work out/understand why measuring at 90 degrees if far more accurate than measuring at TDC. However Fiat have used/specified both methods. So is near enough good enough?

s130 said:

This may amuse or anger some followers here but I can't help saying "near enough is good enough and near enough is not good enough"!

I'll quote a specific example. In one Fiat workshop manual they talk/use a dial gauge to position TDC. In another they use a dial gauge on two pistons to locate the 90 degree point and then use a 90 degree template tools to locate the TDC sensor.

For those with a little knowledge then the 90 degree offset approach is far more accurate at locating true TDC. I'll leave this as an exercise for the student to work out/understand why measuring at 90 degrees if far more accurate than measuring at TDC. However Fiat have used/specified both methods. So is near enough good enough?

Click to expand...

Yup, I'm with you on that. 1 & 2 (or 3 & 4) with their pistons half way up the bores then zero in a degree wheel on the crank nose! No DTI needed. I won't spoil the suspense by saying why this method is better. I have very fond memories, many years ago when I was young, of doing this and fiddling about with hand filed offset Woodruff keys. My mind is now awash with numbers, 731, 649, A2, etc. You can see my best years were in the 60s and 70's! Seem to remember you needed a DTI on the rocker to really dial it in right though? - So long ago now the details are a bit confused in my old mind!

s130 said:

This may amuse or anger some followers here but I can't help saying "near enough is good enough and near enough is not good enough"!

I'll quote a specific example. In one Fiat workshop manual they talk/use a dial gauge to position TDC. In another they use a dial gauge on two pistons to locate the 90 degree point and then use a 90 degree template tools to locate the TDC sensor.

For those with a little knowledge then the 90 degree offset approach is far more accurate at locating true TDC. I'll leave this as an exercise for the student to work out/understand why measuring at 90 degrees if far more accurate than measuring at TDC. However Fiat have used/specified both methods. So is near enough good enough?

Click to expand...

Oh, ment to say, no! Near enough is not good enough! But I'm not getting over excited about this. On the other hand you will probably not notice any effect of "near enough is good enough" if you're talking about an older petrol engine or your lawn mower engine! In my humble opinion though modern petrols and all diesels need to be precisely set up for best results.

By the way I was particularly interested to hear of your experiences when trying to slacken the cam sprocket bolt. Over many years of working with cars and machines, professionaly and as a hobby, I have learned one great lesson which is - unless you have to, leave it well alone! - this can be applied to many aspects of working on cars but in this instance the cam sprocket bolt is a case in point. My old Cordoba 1.9 TDI had a keyless cam sprocket which was a taper fit on the cam! When doing a belt you were supposed to slacken it by loosening the retaining bolt and striking the back of the sprocket (there was a nice wee hole in the guard to facilitate this) to drive it off the taper. It worked fine the first time I did a belt, lucky me! Later, in conversation with mechanic friends, when I mentioned what I'd done I was greeted with a sucking in of breath between the teeth and comments such as, "oooh! You don't want to be doing that, don't you know they are famous for the cam taper snapping off!" So next time I did it I didn't slacken the pulley and everything lined up just fine. I kept that car for 19 years and did 2 more belts both with the same satisfactory result.

I do take your point though that this only works if the pulley has been correctly set up in the first place so, if you are going to do this on an engine whose history you don't know, you really need to check all is well by verifying that the timing tools fit when you've finished. This is what I will be doing from now on.

Ok, going to do the bit on Becky's cam belt, with pictures - such as they are. As it's more specifically Panda I'm moving over to the Panda ('03 to 12) section. It may take me some time to sort out the pics though so don't expect it to appear immediately!