After years of reliable battery performance it all started about six weeks ago with my younger boy's Astra refusing to start. Something had failed, catastrophically, inside the battery (which is about 10 years old) - wouldn't charge or anything. New battery bought and it's fine, although the expense was not welcome right after Christmas! Then, couple of weeks later, same son's wife rang. She's at work, going home time, car won't start. Turns out she'd left the lights on so it started on a jump and a 20 minute drive home put enough charge in for it to start next day. (Near two hour round trip for me though) About a week later she rang again, this time from home (Saturday morning). Car won't start. This time it was my adorable 4 year old granddaughter who has discovered how to turn the interior light on! It had been on since about 2.00pm on the Friday! That's OK though, I'd let her away with murder! So another jump and a quick check that the alternator is charging and they're on their way again. Finally, there's my wife's friend from the end of our street 2010 Polo 1.4 in garage, flat battery, simply because she only uses it once a week to go shopping (we are all retired now). Simple jump got her going and I'll be sticking it on the CTEK this weekend. But what a start to the year! All this, sickness in the family over Christmas/New Year and two weeks of no central heating whilst we tore down the kitchen and utility room ceilings to cut out and replace blocked pipes! Must get on with reinstating that, but I've kind of lost the will to live after tearing the calf muscle in my right leg last week jumping for my life out of the way of a speeding taxi!

This has all set me to thinking about the lottery that is jump starting modern cars! Years ago, when I worked on the shop floor and with the older less reliable cars of those days, jump starting was one of the first skills you mastered. In those days, with no electronics to worry about, the biggest danger was that you might ignite battery gases (and thereby explode the battery!) if you make your last cable connection to a battery terminal and get a spark! So you quickly learned to connect first pos (+) terminal on charged battery to pos (+) terminal on flat battery then neg (-) terminal on charged battery to engine block (or other suitable earth as far away from the battery as possible) so that any spark occurring can not ignite any gasses. Of course remember not to let the vehicles touch! In the garage we had a large capacity battery mounted on a wheeled trolley which could also be placed in the breakdown Land Rover if it had to go out on the road so this isolating of vehicles was not a problem.

Then, as the years rolled on electronics reared their "ugly" head and with them came horrendous tales of ruined electronic control units and the knee trembling expense of replacement! I can honestly say I've never personally had a failure but I've not jumped anything less than 8 years old. Also I have thought long and hard about how the damage is caused and I now follow this proceedure: Turn both ignitions off and remove ignition keys. After connecting the "good" and depleted vehicles stand back and do nothing for about 5 minutes. This should ensure no corruption of immobiliser codes (Honda's seem to be especially sensitive to battery connections and disconnections if the key is left in the ign lock during battery connections/disconnections) and leaving the batteries connected like this will raise the depleted battery voltage so that when the car starts there is much less likelyhood of a spike being generated by the alternator as it tries to pick up the very flat battery. For the first attempt at cranking I would ussualy disconnect the slave battery so that the "good" vehicle is not "in the loop" thereby protecting it. Up till now neither engine has been run so there's very little likelyhood of damage to electronics. If a start is not achieved I would reconnect the good battery - remember, keys out again - start up the engine in the "good" car and let it run for 10 to 15 minutes. This should put a useful surface charge into the "flat" battery. Disconnect and try again. If this doesn't start it I would be investigating in more depth. I don't like having the two vehicles connected together when the "flat" car kicks into life as this is when uncontrolled "spikes" are most likely. A trolley mounted slave battery is a different situation and I'd be happy to leave it connected as it acts as an additional "damper" on any spikes. Some say you should have high load items - rear screen heater, headlamps, etc - on the vehicle you are trying to start also switched on as they too will act as dampers. Probably worth doing if you have enough in the battery to still achieve cranking. If you have started it with the "good" vehicle battery still connected then DON'T rev the engine and DON'T immediately disconnect the jump leads. Give it maybe 5 minutes with the leads still connected to let everything equalise. Again, in the hope of avoiding a spike! It's also worth remembering that battery technology has changed and there are now many batteries which will not tolerate being "deeply discharged". You are likely to find that if you allow a modern battery to become very flat then it won't be possible to charge it up again by conventional means. There are specialist, for which read expensive, charging set ups which can recharge them but it's not cheap and won't get you going in a hurry so you'll probably end up just buying a new battery if this happens to you.

It's worth remembering that many years have passed since I worked on the shop floor and most of the cars I "mess about" with these days are probably best described as "classics" my new Ibiza has stop/start and the owners manual has a detailed section on how a slave battery must be connected if it is to be jump started. I have heard that jump starting is now forbidden on a few of the latest vehicles? So I would want to have a good read of the owners manual on anything built recently before I went near it and even then I'd probably give it a bye if possible. Bye the way, just because I've "got away with it" all these years don't take it as gospel that my way of doing it is the right way. If you decide to try my way and it all goes wrong don't blame me - maybe I've just been lucky all these years!

Since retiring, and if I was helping someone at home, I've had to rely on my own vehicle's battery as the power source. At present, although having bought a new Ibiza two years ago (and oh boy does it have electronics everywhere!) I still run my 20 year old 1.9 tdi Cordoba which has minimal electronics and a humongously large battery - ideal for jumping! Trouble is the Cordoba is probably going to have to go soon - just too many problems.

However, once "Tony" the Cordoba has gone, I don't have a suitable car to provide a source of jump power, "Twink", the new Ibiza, is stuffed with electronics and has a "toy" sized battery! So I've been looking at alternatives. What I'd really like would be a nice big lead acid cell battery which I could keep in the garage just like the one we had in the workshop. Trouble is it won't last very long as it's not being worked so would sulphate up even if charged regularly. ( Anyway, probably a bit of an overkill to keep just on the chance a "family fleet" vehicle experiences a flat battery). So what about one of these jump pack you see advertised everywhere? But don't they just have a built in battery? So I'm back to how long the battery might last (and anyway they seem to have quite small batteries when compared to a good old lead acid one and are, pro rata, quite pricey? Then there's these "new generation" lithium ion jobs you keep in your glove box. I think they work on the fact that most "flat batteries" are not actually flat but just contain slightly less voltage than is needed to crank the engine. The lithium pack has enough in it to lift the voltage enough to crank the engine and away you go? I doubt if it would give a start in a situation such as that caused by my granddaughter leaving the interior light on?

However there does seem to be one, maybe, contender. A jump starter based on ultra capacitors. There are one or two on the market, the one I like is the Sealey ESTART 1100 but I'm still trying to get my head round how it works. It seems it can be charged very quickly from an almost flat battery and then deliver a brief full voltage flow back into the system which is enough to briefly crank the engine and start it as long as the only reason it failed to start in the first place was due to "a flat battery". If my reasoning is correct it seems to contain 5 "ultra capacitors" (whatever they are? They seem a little different to the old type capacitors I know from coil ignition systems) each one is rated around 2.7 volts, I think? so linking them in series gives you the 13.5 volts to turn the starter but, and I'm guessing here, if you decouple them and charge them in parallel then you can successfully achieve charging, very quickly because they are capacitors, with a very depleted 12 volt battery as you only need 3 or 4 volts? Some clever looking electronics inside the box look as if this is what is happening? When not needed the unit, because it contains no batteries, doesn't degrade and can just live in your boot, workshop or wherever with no danger of shorting out after the residual charge in the capacitors has depleted. The manufacturers are projecting in excess of a ten year life!

So, anyone know anything about them? The above knowledge comes from googling and you tube clips so I may be way wide of the mark!
Also if anyone would like to way in with their experiences and tips on safe jump starting I would be very interested.

By the way, just on the off chance anyone is interested in my progress regarding the cam belt replacement on my boy's 1.4 8valve 2012 punto - see older entry about using MES in 2012 Punto section - I have the timing tools for locking the engine but local garages say they do them by marking the belt and pulleys with tipp-ex (in the age-old way) and they don't slacken the cam pulley or remove the cam cover? I want to do it their way and then fit the timing tools to see if it all actually lines up to spec.
I had intended to do this before Christmas, as she's way over the 4 years now - more like 6 (nervous tick in right eye!) but everything went hopelessly rhomboid shaped (pear shaped doesn't start to describe it) so I still haven't done it. That factory fit original belt must have been a good one! Kind regards to all
Jock.

Hi,
I use a homemade jump pack rather than jump leads most of the time these days. It's handier to use and less risk. It is just a sealed lead acid battery with a couple of heavy cables attached and in a carry bag. The battery is a Hawker SBS 40 one of the best out there (costs about £350 new) It's a used battey and had a hard life in the last car it was in but has lasted 20 years since I removed it from Thrust SSC (Still had to buy it at auction Richard gave nothing away) and starts the biggest diesel with ease. Worlds only 12V supersonic jump start pack (I also have the 24V Power Vamp that we used on the project, it has two SBS30's).
The Ultra capacitor units are interesting. A ultracapacitor could be thought of as a non chemical battery as there is no chemical reaction they can be charged very quickly, less than a minute depending on the power source. Some of the packs have a voltgae boosting circuit that can produce 14V from as low as 5 or 6 Volts. they can charge up from a depleted battery over a few minutes and then give all the energy back in a few seconds at 14V. The don't make energy so won't work from a totally flat or failed battery, but will take a fairly slow low current and voltage charge, boost voltge and deliver it quickly. Not cheap though. A deep cycle sealled lead acid battery will work just as well and last a long time if you use a quality charger and recharge after use and once every 6 months or so.

Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

Hi,
I use a homemade jump pack rather than jump leads most of the time these days. It's handier to use and less risk. It is just a sealed lead acid battery with a couple of heavy cables attached and in a carry bag. The battery is a Hawker SBS 40 one of the best out there (costs about £350 new) It's a used battey and had a hard life in the last car it was in but has lasted 20 years since I removed it from Thrust SSC (Still had to buy it at auction Richard gave nothing away) and starts the biggest diesel with ease. Worlds only 12V supersonic jump start pack (I also have the 24V Power Vamp that we used on the project, it has two SBS30's).
The Ultra capacitor units are interesting. A ultracapacitor could be thought of as a non chemical battery as there is no chemical reaction they can be charged very quickly, less than a minute depending on the power source. Some of the packs have a voltgae boosting circuit that can produce 14V from as low as 5 or 6 Volts. they can charge up from a depleted battery over a few minutes and then give all the energy back in a few seconds at 14V. The don't make energy so won't work from a totally flat or failed battery, but will take a fairly slow low current and voltage charge, boost voltge and deliver it quickly. Not cheap though. A deep cycle sealled lead acid battery will work just as well and last a long time if you use a quality charger and recharge after use and once every 6 months or so.

Robert G8RPI.

Click to expand...

To be fair hawker battery's will be expensive but given how they are one of the largest manufacturer of proper deep cycle batteries e.g forklift batteries ect you know they will be made well

g8rpi said:

Hi,
I use a homemade jump pack rather than jump leads most of the time these days. It's handier to use and less risk. It is just a sealed lead acid battery with a couple of heavy cables attached and in a carry bag. The battery is a Hawker SBS 40 one of the best out there (costs about £350 new) It's a used battey and had a hard life in the last car it was in but has lasted 20 years since I removed it from Thrust SSC (Still had to buy it at auction Richard gave nothing away) and starts the biggest diesel with ease. Worlds only 12V supersonic jump start pack (I also have the 24V Power Vamp that we used on the project, it has two SBS30's).
The Ultra capacitor units are interesting. A ultracapacitor could be thought of as a non chemical battery as there is no chemical reaction they can be charged very quickly, less than a minute depending on the power source. Some of the packs have a voltgae boosting circuit that can produce 14V from as low as 5 or 6 Volts. they can charge up from a depleted battery over a few minutes and then give all the energy back in a few seconds at 14V. The don't make energy so won't work from a totally flat or failed battery, but will take a fairly slow low current and voltage charge, boost voltge and deliver it quickly. Not cheap though. A deep cycle sealled lead acid battery will work just as well and last a long time if you use a quality charger and recharge after use and once every 6 months or so.

Robert G8RPI.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info on the ultracaps Robert. My word you seem to have an interesting past? The nearest I can come to that was when I worked as a race engineer for the Firestone tire (correct spelling) and rubber co. In the 70's. Mainly I covered the European Touring Car Championship but was also seconded to assist with big sports car meets (Le Mans, Spa etc) where extra staff were needed - absolutely loved the job but Firestone packed up factory support in Europe and went back to America. Having trained as a mechanic, I defaulted into the motor repair trade.

I'm still very interested in these supercapacitors but this morning has reminded me that there is no substitute for a nice big battery. I went out to buy milk and bread and decided to give "Tony", my 20 year old Cordoba 1.9tdi, a run as he needed fuel. It's very cold up here in Edinburgh this morning with white frost on everything. Jumped into Tony and turned the key to illuminate the heater plugs, waited for the light to go out and cranked, and cranked, and cranked! Eventually he struggled into life with a massive cloud of evil black smoke from his exhaust! A supercapacitor pack couldn't do that. Until about 18 months ago he was always an instant starter. But then he started being a bit "lowpy" - not immediately firing on all 4. At that time I did a resistance check on the heater plugs and certainly one gave a questionable reading. With these plugs having been in there since new I know it will be optimistic in the extreme to expect them to come out without snapping so I just left it - well, he was starting and ran fine after a couple of minutes! But now, almost two years later, I fear some more of the heaters have failed! I'm almost in tears about this as I fear it's probably time to say goodbye (MOT due) and I've owned him since he was just over a year old so I probably know him more intimately than I do my better half! I just don't think it's worth taking the head off to drill out the plugs when I know he has many other problems. Turbo wastegate actuator diaphragm punctured (no longer available, exchange turbo at great cost) Some really, really nasty to get at brake pipes which hide at the back near the fuel tank and involve the brake force apportioning valve. Bottom coil of NSR road spring snapped. And so on, and so on! There's also the fact that most of his clear coat is lifting in patches which makes him unsaleable. He looks like someone who has suffered severe sunburn and is now peeling all over! Attracts looks from the " Boy's in Blue" too!

Ah well! Let's look on the bright side. I bought him a brand new, premium quality, Bosch branded battery less than 2 years ago so that could come out and live connected to my CTEK XS 7000 in readyness for jump start duties! Isn't there a saying about clouds and silver linings?

I find what you had to say about deep cycle batteries very interesting. I'm very much an old school oily rag and big hammer man (always happiest on jobs like seperating a stubborn ball joint taper. Get to use the big hammer!) Going to do some googling on them.

Stay safe everyone
Jock

Hi,
See pictures of my pack below. The AA bag had been bought many years earlier from Greenweld surplus. They were intended for a mobile phone that was extra to AA membership Trouble was they only called 999 or the AA. Didn’t catch on for some reason…. Thrust SSC was an interesting time. I’d always been interested in the LSR, had followed Richard in 1983 and was following Thrust SSC. I would never have thought of getting involved as I assumed they had all the best people on it. I was working at Bournemouth airport in the 90’s and there were some connections there. The piantshop for one company I worked for painted Thrust 2 and I knew Ken Norris because we did the radios on his flying club aircraft and I’d had some PT6 engine training from his company. I’d actually got annoyed with my employer over salary, they paid a less experienced new starter more, and left to work for an instrument repair company as quality manager. They were MOD approved and the SSC team were looking to get the engine instruments from a Phantom serviced and they got No’s until they got to M in the MOD company list. So it fell on me to do the instruments. There were no instrument manuals so I used the Phantom manuals. They then asked for a conversion of an indicator that needed 400Hz power so I asked if they had 26V ac on the car. They said no, they had no AC power on the car. I said they needed it for the engines, could the double check? I also double checked. A little while later I got a call saying no they did not have or need AC power according to their engine expert. I knew they did so said to ask Andy Green what the “IGV” light on a Phantom indicated. I knew it as connected to the fail output of the alternator control unit. 10 minutes later I got call from Andy saying it meant the engine had no control of the guide vanes or re-heat nozzle and they also needed AC power for the two 3kW fuel pumps! Two weeks later I was at Boscombe Down robbing the alternators and control units from a retired Phantom. I was on the team. I stayed on the team to the very end. Had two trips to Jordan, was nearly killed in an accident there in ’96, and was on the desert start/turn round team for the record. I’ve had a small involvement with Bloodhound SSC but they are too far away and I’m now married with more responsibilities.


Robert G8RPI.

So you worked with Ian ( radar ) dennigton, a Sgt airframe technician who was also on the team in Jordan.

Hi,
I've met Ian, but as far as I recall he was not in Jordan. He was at Black Rock in the USA, but as a Mach 1 Club Platinum member, not a team member. He helped with security and fodding (both essential tasks). I think he may have helped with some fabrication in the early days when the car was at G-force. The "team" varied during the course of the project but the offical lists are in Richards book "Thrust".

Robert G8RPI.