JTD_Liam said:

People would be right to run a mile from the Dualogic which is old and unreliable, but to level anything other than the odd isolated criticism at the newer Dual Clutch box is highly unjustified.

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:yeahthat:

My comments, and the linked thread, apply only to the Dualogic used in the European 500 & Panda, not the newer Dual Clutch box.

They also don't apply to North American 500's, the gearbox on these cars is completely different and uses conventional autobox technology.

I considered the Jeep Renegade DDCT before I bought the Panda.

I’d rather have an automatic any day of the week.

As a younger man I always Poo Poo'd auto boxes and considered them suitable for "old people" or those with no interest in motoring. Then I became a motor mechanic and went to Borg Warner to learn "all about" (better replace these words with "something about") the type 35 and it's closely related cousin type 65. I found them absolutely fascinating and started a life time love affair with auto boxes. (or "slush boxers" as some call them!). Don't forget that if you enjoy "spirited motoring" you can exercise a degree of control over gear changes by using the selector to, for instance, hang on to a gear mid corner to stop it changing up just as you are controlling a "sideways moment"!

With relatives on the eastern seaboard of the US we have spent quite some time over there and I just love driving the automatic cars we rent. I would have bought one myself in the past except for the horrendous bills I've seen handed out to customers when they have gone wrong, but it needs to be said that they are actually pretty reliable devices, especially if you disregard the manufacturer's claim that the fluid doesn't need to be changed. Changing the fluid and filter/s at around 50,000 miles should be mandatory in my view.

Up to this point I've been talking about the conventional traditional epicyclic boxes with torque converters. Now lets consider the new automated manual boxes like our Fiat ones or the VAG DSGs or any of the host of others now popular. Just take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LCc2EcZ9ag&t=713s or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD2Mg5j5oT8 and all I can think to say is "why would you even consider it?"

There are absolutely loads of stuff about the problems with these types of box and they are a favourite source of conversation in workshops too. Some people get lucky and some need very deep pockets indeed!

Before the 4x4 TA Panda (manual box obviously)i now have, I bought a top of the range 2ltr diesel 500X 4x4 with a 9 speed auto. (I bought it mainly because the dealer kept on discounting it till I couldn't refuse. Onlly after I had had it for a while did I finally realise they COULD NOT SELL IT except to a mug like me who could not wait for the Panda, I really wanted)
A 9- yes- nine speed box actually has about 3 redundant gears in my opinion. With two ltr diesel torque it seems unnecessary.. I did not keep it long enough for it to go wrong, and, I did have something of the last laugh in that it had been SO heavily discounted at sale, I only lost a little when it went to "We buy any car"
When I finally ordered and waited for my 4x4 TA Panda, I managed to secure a reasonable discount on the new price so did not overall loose too much
In fairness the 500X although not to my taste, really came into it's own when I drove across Germany and back in a couple of days for an old mate's funeral
6 speed manual on the TA is about right for me (Try push starting an auto!!------Don't!)

Best gearbox I ever had fun with was a pre-selector type - the same type that was in the old Armstrong Siddley Saphire.


However this was also fitted in a 1934 MG K3 Magnette (only 33 of these were built) and they were almost the equivelant of a F1 car in their day. I have had the fortune to drive a couple of K3s an original and an identical replica 1100cc and 1700cc respectively - both supercharged and very quick.

Great for a fast gearchange either up or down, just select the next gear youre going to need, and simply stomp on the clutch when you want it to happen Very weird internally though, some kind of band mechanism that I believe required specialist knowledge but nevertheless reliable when set up - I wouldnt know where to begin. I believe they were also used in buses!

MaxHeadroom said:

just select the next gear youre going to need, and simply stomp on the clutch when you want it to happen

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:nono:

It's not a clutch pedal, it's a gearchange pedal .

The operation is completely different; when you want to change to the preselected gear, you just lift the throttle pedal, then press the gearchange pedal to the floor and release it immediately . It's a quick 'press fully down then release'; if you use it like a clutch pedal, you'll destroy the transmission in short order. It can be hard nowadays to find an MOT station that knows how to drive one, though most cars with these transmissions will be exempt now.

They're almost the exact opposite in principle to a dualogic; basically an automatic gearbox with a torque converter, but with manual control (the dualogic is a manual gearbox & clutch, controlled automatically). You drive the car just like a conventional auto, except you have to manage when to change gear. You can move the gearchange lever any time you like, moving or stationary; the change only happens when you press the gearchange pedal. When coming to a stop, you can just leave it in any gear you like and brake; the torque converter takes care of the rest. They creep just like a conventional auto.

Unfortunately they're inherently rather inefficient; the fluid flywheel torque converter saps a lot of power.

Daimler were very fond of them in the pre-Jaguar days. You can give your passengers a very smooth ride with these transmissions, just what you need in a limousine. In the days before synchromesh, this would have been a big selling point.

Ah yes... referring to it as a "gearchange pedal" makes very good sense!

Just brilliant fun to drive in a 'spirited manner' - if these things existed in modern cars, given the choice, I'd have one every time!


I remember helping fit one into a car too - and recall thinking it was extraordinarlily heavy!

This is a very interesting subject isn't it jrk? I've mentioned somewhere before of my "brush" with these boxes when in the ACF but never really understood much about them at the time (I just, very occasionally, got to drive one) As the years have rolled by I've accumulated a fair understanding of how they work and I think they can best be described as "manually actuated automatics?" in that they are epicyclic gear trains with manually actuated brake bands. I remember the type 35 Borg Warner - a conventional automatic which I met frequently in the likes of the Farina bodies BMC stuff and Marina and others (maybe the Marina was a type 65?). It even was used, mounted sideways in the 1800 "Landcrab" where it ran on it's own automatic fluid not on the engine oil as did the manual version - repaid accurate band adjustment with nice smooth changes.

https://cdn.triumphowners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/20212721/borg-warner-bw35-manual.pdf

I also remember the AP gearbox which appeared in the smaller models - Mini, 1100, etc - which was, generally, an absolute disaster. The "Known Issues" section in wiki gives some clues as to what used to go wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_automatic_transmission

And here's some more detailed stuff:

http://members.tripod.com/austin_america/id72.html

I never worked much on these mainly because I always managed to hide in the loo until some other unfortunate person got given the job card!

Here are a couple of interesting articles for anyone who wants to know more about pre-selector type boxes:

https://www.vorwahlgetriebe.de/the-wilson-preselector-gearbox/?L=1

https://www.wired.com/2015/02/ill-fated-1930s-racing-tech-thats-mounting-comeback/

Although we had a number of vehicles in our M/T section we were only allowed to work on them when someone from M/T section was in attendance with us. Mostly - remember we were only senior school boys - we learned how to do simple service tasks. So setting points, cleaning out oil bath air filters and refilling them to the correct level, changing and gaping spark plugs, and lots of greasing - king pins, track rod ends, prop shaft U/Js, spring shackles, and so on - a lot of emphasis was also placed on wiping off excess grease which was extruded! We never got to take anything "important" to pieces.