Hello all,

I'm in the middle of changing the timing belt on my 62 plate Panda Pop 1.2 and I'm having some trouble. I've had the timing tools in place but the tension on the water pump side seems too loose as I try to fit the belt.

My understanding is that if I can loosen the camshaft pulley it should spin freely as it isn't keyed to the shaft? I have the odd-looking VVT cam pulley, however, so I'm a bit uncertain of what I'm doing with it. The outer TX55 seems to be an oil seal and I lost confidence trying to undo the next TX55 (which gets revealed after removing the first) as I was putting so much force on it that my adjustable wrench failed and slipped off the 23mm flats on the camshaft. Tight is an understatement!

There is a few degrees of play to the camshaft pulley and there's a squelch as you rotate it back and forth that much, so I'm assuming that's the range that the VVT adjusts. I hope it's that, at least, and I haven't buggered something trying to undo the bolt!

Has anyone had their VVT camshaft pulley spinning freely with the bolt undone? Maybe I need to just get a proper 23mm spanner to hold the shaft and have another go but just lacking confidence since I'm not familiar with the VVT workings! Also all the camshafts on ebay seem to come with the pulley still on... :chin:

I changed the belt on my boy's 2012 VVT 1.4 8valve Punto - in essence the same setup? I wanted to find out if you could do it without slackening that VVT pulley bolt. (I'm a great believer in letting sleeping dogs lie!) - And, by gum, that torx bolt is super tight isn't it!

I wanted to be absolutely sure I'd got it right so I bought the timing tools (I had our own 1.2 8valve - non VVT - 2010 Panda to do as well). I used the crankshaft tool to set the engine up at it's locking point and checked that the cam locking tool was lining up but did not slacken the cam pulley torx bolt. (you can be one crankshaft rev out - 180 degrees on the cam - which you need to check by looking at the end of the cam - bell housing end of engine) I then Tippex marked the cam pulley, cylinder head and cambelt and, down below, the crank pulley, block face (oil pump housing actually) and cam belt. Loosened the tensioner and removed cam belt, tensioner and water pump. I always do a water pump where it's part of the belt drivetrain. After installing the new water pump I transferred the tippex marks from the old belt to the new one and fitted it onto the pulleys so that the crank and cam pulley marks, marks on the new belt and marks on the head and oil pump casing all lined up. After tightening the spring loaded tensioner and rotating the engine a few times by hand "just to be sure" I rechecked the timing using the timing tools on the crankshaft and camshaft. Everything lined up exactly. So no slackening of that cam pulley bolt was needed. Don't expect the tippexed marks to line up again after rotating the engine though. (they probably would if you turn it over many times but not after just a few).

I wondered if it was a fluke so repeated the procedure on the Panda and the result was the same! again no need to slacken that pulley bolt.

I checked with great care when I was using the timing tools and everything was absolutely spot perfect lined up! So, as long as no-one else has been in there before you, slackened "that bolt" and failed to set it up properly before retightening "that bolt" I believe there is no need to slacken it. Both our engines were getting their first belt change so had not been touched before and were as set up at the factory. The big plus for me here is that now I know this "tippex" method works and that the cam pulley is tightened to the correct position on the camshaft, I will not need to remove the cam cover next time. I'll simply mark it all up with the tippex and swop the belts. I would not be happy to do it this way on an "unknown" engine as I would be too worried someone might have tightened the cam pulley up in the wrong position.

Lastly, Although I felt confident about actually doing the belts and water pumps etc, having done many in my life, I got my knickers in a bit of a twist leading up to doing these cam belts because I had read, here on the forum and in other online posts, that when a new belt is fitted the ECU requires a reset to be done - Fiat call it a "Phonic Wheel Relearn" (the Gates - Gates being my favourite brand - instructions actually mentions it and my local Fiat main agent say they do it as a matter of course as part of the procedure). Apparently the problem is to do with the way the ECU perceives the signals from the camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor to be relating to one another. The argument is that fitting the new belt disturbs - albeit only very slightly - this relationship. I wondered if, by not slackening "that bolt" the relationship would remain undisturbed (given the very tight tolerances to which synchronous belts are manufactured). I'm pleased to say that some 6 months on, neither vehicle has required this procedure. For your info, having read extensively about it and talked to local Fiat indy garages, if it's going to do it it normally brings the engine warning light on when cruising at speed out on country roads - it would seem that it often won't light it if the car is only poodling around. When a scanner is applied fault codes come up for a missfire, which leads people off on a wild and expensive witch hunt looking at plugs, ignition leads, coils and even the ECU itself. The big give away is that as the driver you will not have felt any evidence of missfiring - because, of course, it's not! it's just the ECU trying to make sense of the missmatch on the sensor signal syncronization.

Facing this possibility I decided to buy my own fully registered copy of Multiecuscan (from Gendan - good people) https://www.gendan.co.uk/product_FESPKG.html which would let me carry out the full procedure. As it turned out I didn't need it for this but I haven't regretted it for one minute. It's a great tool. Lets you do service resets, read fault codes, activate components for testing, read and graph sensor outputs and lots more - Almost everything the dealer can do with his tool! I start every service by scanning the whole vehicle for codes which gives you a jolly good idea of any problems there may be in addition to the simpler service tasks I'm about to undertake. Have a look at their website (if you haven't already) https://www.multiecuscan.net/ A lot of the folks on here use it and there's lots in the forum about what you can do with it. There's a free version on the Multiecuscan website which you can download and run in simulation mode which will give you a very good idea of what it can do.

So. Good luck with it all. Hope this was helpful.
Kind regards
Jock

IntroV said:

Hello all,

I'm in the middle of changing the timing belt on my 62 plate Panda Pop 1.2 and I'm having some trouble. I've had the timing tools in place but the tension on the water pump side seems too loose as I try to fit the belt.

My understanding is that if I can loosen the camshaft pulley it should spin freely as it isn't keyed to the shaft? I have the odd-looking VVT cam pulley, however, so I'm a bit uncertain of what I'm doing with it. The outer TX55 seems to be an oil seal and I lost confidence trying to undo the next TX55 (which gets revealed after removing the first) as I was putting so much force on it that my adjustable wrench failed and slipped off the 23mm flats on the camshaft. Tight is an understatement!

There is a few degrees of play to the camshaft pulley and there's a squelch as you rotate it back and forth that much, so I'm assuming that's the range that the VVT adjusts. I hope it's that, at least, and I haven't buggered something trying to undo the bolt!

Has anyone had their VVT camshaft pulley spinning freely with the bolt undone? Maybe I need to just get a proper 23mm spanner to hold the shaft and have another go but just lacking confidence since I'm not familiar with the VVT workings! Also all the camshafts on ebay seem to come with the pulley still on... :chin:

Click to expand...

Ok. That VVT pulley. The outside plug which you've removed? It is indeed just that - a plug to keep the oil in, so the O ring needs to be undamaged. The pulley is internally in two parts. A central hub with "vanes" which is what's fixed to the cam, by that inner Torx bolt, and contained inside the outer casing which is "chambered" so that oil pressure can act on the vanes of the inner hub. The outer casing is the visible pulley which the belt drives. The central hub is held in the retarded position, in relation to the outer casing, by some springs. So when the ECU decides to open the solenoid valve (you can see that on the top of the cam cover) oil, under pressure, acts between the vanes and outer casing making the cam itself advance in relation to the pulley. So you may be able to move (twist?) this pulley when the belt is removed but it should return, under the springs influence, to a resting position. I doubt if you will have "buggered" (an expressive word I quite like!) the bolt, unless you've damaged the torx splines? - Buy a really good quality tool!

I wouldn't worry too much about a wee bit of "slack" in the belt when you're fitting it. It will go away when you tighten the tensioner. Of course you need to check that the timing tools all fit back into position after the tension is applied to the belt. If the belt had a lot of slack in it you may be a tooth out (maybe two at the most) and you'll need to remove it and refit it to eliminate the error. Of course if you are slackening "that bolt" then you are in a whole different situation because you will have the crank and cam locked in their correct positions by the tools. So as you tighten the tensioner the belt will cause the cam pulley (now free running because you slackened the bolt) to rotate on the camshaft "nose" until all the slack is taken up.

Hope that's helpful? anything I've not made clear please just ask.
regards
Jock

I'd not slacken anything. You may loose valve timing. I did mine with marks on the camshaft pulley and on the crank with the line lined up to the flange on the front of the engine. I didn't use any special tools and everything went fine, tension OK with no issues.

Thanks for the replies – very much appreciated!

Jock, your explanation makes a lot of sense with what I've been seeing so thanks for that. The outer casing does indeed spring back if I turn it with the cam locked. Wasn't sure if I had caused that few degrees of play while trying to slacken the bolt, so I'm relieved to hear that is working correctly. The splines on the torx bolt are holding up so far but the amount of torque I'm having to put on that bolt is very concerning. My 1/2in breaker bar is flexing but the bolt will not give!

I might have to do as you guys say and try leaving that bolt in place. The reason I wanted to get the pulley loose was that I already did the belt change last weekend without the timing tools but had the engine management light on afterwards (cam position code). I bought the kit to do the phonic wheel learn and clear the light but it came back on again. I had noticed while tensioning the belt that the tension was pulling the crank pulley half a tooth clockwise off my marks and the same at the camshaft (but counterclockwise due to being on the other side of the tensioner). I did try to refit the belt and compensate but it wasn't happening.

So here I am this weekend with the timing tools hoping that getting the cam pulley loose would allow me to tension the belt with the camshaft and crank locked in place and then I could re-tighten the cam pulley and everything would be perfect. This torx bolt though...

IntroV said:

Thanks for the replies – very much appreciated!

Jock, your explanation makes a lot of sense with what I've been seeing so thanks for that. The outer casing does indeed spring back if I turn it with the cam locked. Wasn't sure if I had caused that few degrees of play while trying to slacken the bolt, so I'm relieved to hear that is working correctly. The splines on the torx bolt are holding up so far but the amount of torque I'm having to put on that bolt is very concerning. My 1/2in breaker bar is flexing but the bolt will not give!

I might have to do as you guys say and try leaving that bolt in place. The reason I wanted to get the pulley loose was that I already did the belt change last weekend without the timing tools but had the engine management light on afterwards (cam position code). I bought the kit to do the phonic wheel learn and clear the light but it came back on again. I had noticed while tensioning the belt that the tension was pulling the crank pulley half a tooth clockwise off my marks and the same at the camshaft (but counterclockwise due to being on the other side of the tensioner). I did try to refit the belt and compensate but it wasn't happening.

So here I am this weekend with the timing tools hoping that getting the cam pulley loose would allow me to tension the belt with the camshaft and crank locked in place and then I could re-tighten the cam pulley and everything would be perfect. This torx bolt though...

Click to expand...

Regarding the tightness of this cam pulley bolt. Others on this forum have commented on how tight it is which was one of the reasons I wanted to see if I really needed to slacken it. I too would be very nervous about trying to undo something which is so tight it was bending my breaker bar! When things get really tough I do have a 2ft 3/4" drive breaker bar (called Fred - don't ask) but I would guess he'd probably just break either the bolt or torx bit.

Picture of "Fred" and his lesser friends:



So when you did the belt last weekend I presume you did it without slackening the cam pulley bolt? If this is the case, because the engine light has lit up I would suspect you may have the belt fitted one tooth out. By the way be careful with this engine. The 1.2 with the VVT is interference as far as I know (earlier ones were not) so if the belt brakes or you get the timing significantly wrong the valves and pistons will get very intimate with each other, and, as is so often the case with close intimacy, it is likely to end in tears!

You say you have the timing tools? If I were you - assuming you have not yet removed the belt again - I would remove the cam cover and belt guards and try fitting the crank locking and cam locking tools. What I'm finding difficult to understand is that before you started work the engine ran fine with no dashboard lights lit? You haven't "fiddled" with the pulleys so the relationship of crank pulley to crankshaft and cam pulley to camshaft are unaltered. Then you fitted a new belt without slackening the cam pulley bolt and you now have an engine warning light with a cam positioning code stored? These belts are manufactured to very tight tolerances and I don't think there would be enough difference between the old and new belts to cause a problem (didn't on either of ours - What make of belt did you buy?) By the way the belt has 129 teeth, worth a check? So I come back to you being, maybe, a tooth out? I just can't see how it can be anything else if you haven't slackened that torx bolt? No chance you've damaged/disturbed the sensor is there?

If you do slacken the bolt I think you will be very likely to need to do a Phonic Wheel Relearn on completion. By the way you mention "buying the kit to do the Phonic Wheel Relearn" So did you actually buy a copy of Multiecuscan (MES)? I know that it lets you do it as does the Main Dealer kit but other options I've looked at don't.

By the way, you talk about being 1/2 a tooth out on the crank pulley teeth? With crank turning twice to one turn of the cam I think one tooth on the cam pulley equals half a tooth on the crank? Giving myself a headache now, need to go away and hit something with a big hammer!

Good luck. do let us know how you are getting on
Jock

Don't know how you approach it but when fitting the new belt I like to put it round the crank pulley first and trap it in mesh with the teeth with a socket or bit of wood so it can't jump teeth. Then I go round the water pump and, from the top, feed it into mesh with the cam pulley keeping the belt tight as I go. - Don't know if that helps?

By the way, if you do slacken the cam pulley bolt, because it is so tight, I was concerned about reusing it. I asked at our local Fiat independent who said just reuse the old bolt (but, when pressed, went on to say they don't slacken them!!!) then I called at the Fiat Main Dealer and was met with a puzzled blank stare when asking at the service desk. Luckily a helpful storeman was dealing with another customer and I managed to "nobble" him before he disappeared back through his door. He was very helpful. No they don't keep that bolt in stock but could order one if I want it. So I would guess they dont change them either (or, they do the job without slackening the bolt in the first place?)

Regards
J

Hi.
Well I've did my 1.2 lounge with VVT twice as the Timing belt tensioner failed within two weeks of fitting it along with the belt. In fact in February I actually had it all down again as I initially refitted the old tensioner as a temporary replacement. In February I fitted a second new tensioner and second new timing belt and water pump just in case there mat have been an issue. Now each time I did not need the special tools. The accuracy of using white marks is very important and to line up the marks on the crank firstly is also important prior to marking the camshaft pulley accurately. If you mark the crank in the manufacturers position the camshaft in my case doesn't move once the belt is released. I think I know where you may have gone wrong though. There is backlash on the VVT engine and that is due to the oil in the chambers behind the pulley. The more you try and turn it there more chance the backlash will increase as the oil tries to move out of the chambers. The problem is if the camshaft moves in relation to the pulley then it is possible to have it one tooth out if the backlash is taken up the wrong way. So this is why you got the EML warning and no doubt the engine was sluggish or had pre-ignition.

You have no option now other than use the tools. Doing the job with home made marks is fine but on a hydraulic VVT engine try not to turn the camshaft with the pulley or it will get messed up.

Good luck

Hi.
One thing that is vitally important is not to turn the engine backwards if you go a little too far, rotate the crankshaft twice clockwise and go slowly when getting near the line on the crank pulley sprocket, turning the engine anticlockwise reduces the tension between crank, water pump and camshaft and of course adds backlash to the VVT system.

Thanks for all the replies an help guys!

Jock, I somehow completely missed your first reply last night (post #2 on this thread). When I got the EML coming on after the first attempt at the belt change I did indeed go and buy the Multi ECU Scan software you mention to try and deal with it. I saw the gendan package but I'm a cheap sod and bought the OBDLink SX cable from Amazon for £36 and got the Registered version of the software direct for €50. Also got the £45 timing tools after confirming the fault code with it. (Side note, the cam pulley locking tool came with a 1.5mm thread pitch bolt, no good for my 2012 Panda at least – requires a 1.25mm pitch I think. Whatever the case, it wouldn't thread in the hole!)

I also got the same impression regarding the sensitivity and relationship between the crank and cam sensors while reading up after my failed first attempt. I saw comments that a lot of independent garages get the timing belt wrong on the Panda as a result of not buying the timing tools and that the tools are a must. I had been initially following a video on Youtube for the general procedure (only done one cam belt before [on a V6] so still like to have a bit of guidance with these things). My marks had been accurate but the problem I had was tensioning the belt was causing them to misalign. I may have been a tooth out like you say although I did try several times to gain an extra tooth on the tesnioner side and couldn't seem to manage it. I'm also wondering if I hadn't realised the importance of the correct belt tension. Maybe I was setting it too high (really hard to see the 'arrows' on the tensioner) and a lower (correct) tension would have relaxed the pulleys back to my marks again. Hard to say now... Regardless, it sounds as though you guys have both had success without the timing tools, so no reason I should have got it wrong the first time. No doubt my error somewhere along the way!

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Regarding the tightness of this cam pulley bolt. Others on this forum have commented on how tight it is which was one of the reasons I wanted to see if I really needed to slacken it. I too would be very nervous about trying to undo something which is so tight it was bending my breaker bar! When things get really tough I do have a 2ft 3/4" drive breaker bar (called Fred - don't ask) but I would guess he'd probably just break either the bolt or torx bit.

Click to expand...

Probably best I didn't have access the Fred or I think you are right and either the bolt or bit would have broke! Nice set of bars you have though! I gave it one more go undoing it this afternoon and the splines on my torx bit (not the bolt, thankfully) were starting to twist. I had to admit defeat and leave it be.

You say you have the timing tools? If I were you - assuming you have not yet removed the belt again - I would remove the cam cover and belt guards and try fitting the crank locking and cam locking tools. What I'm finding difficult to understand is that before you started work the engine ran fine with no dashboard lights lit? You haven't "fiddled" with the pulleys so the relationship of crank pulley to crankshaft and cam pulley to camshaft are unaltered. Then you fitted a new belt without slackening the cam pulley bolt and you now have an engine warning light with a cam positioning code stored? These belts are manufactured to very tight tolerances and I don't think there would be enough difference between the old and new belts to cause a problem (didn't on either of ours - What make of belt did you buy?) By the way the belt has 129 teeth, worth a check? So I come back to you being, maybe, a tooth out? I just can't see how it can be anything else if you haven't slackened that torx bolt? No chance you've damaged/disturbed the sensor is there?

Click to expand...

I think I probably must have been a tooth out like you say, although I was certain at the time I had it tight as it would go on the water pump side. The timing kit I got is Bosch brand, although I did regret not getting the Gates one afterwards. Fingers crossed it holds up!

I fit the timing belt the exact same way you describe, even using a little wooden wedge to hold the belt at the crank! Makes sense to do it that way to get the belt tight on the water pump side, and then let the tensioner set the other side.

murphyv310 said:

Hi.
Well I've did my 1.2 lounge with VVT twice as the Timing belt tensioner failed within two weeks of fitting it along with the belt. In fact in February I actually had it all down again as I initially refitted the old tensioner as a temporary replacement. In February I fitted a second new tensioner and second new timing belt and water pump just in case there mat have been an issue. Now each time I did not need the special tools. The accuracy of using white marks is very important and to line up the marks on the crank firstly is also important prior to marking the camshaft pulley accurately. If you mark the crank in the manufacturers position the camshaft in my case doesn't move once the belt is released. I think I know where you may have gone wrong though. There is backlash on the VVT engine and that is due to the oil in the chambers behind the pulley. The more you try and turn it there more chance the backlash will increase as the oil tries to move out of the chambers. The problem is if the camshaft moves in relation to the pulley then it is possible to have it one tooth out if the backlash is taken up the wrong way. So this is why you got the EML warning and no doubt the engine was sluggish or had pre-ignition.

You have no option now other than use the tools. Doing the job with home made marks is fine but on a hydraulic VVT engine try not to turn the camshaft with the pulley or it will get messed up.

Good luck

Click to expand...

Hi.
One thing that is vitally important is not to turn the engine backwards if you go a little too far, rotate the crankshaft twice clockwise and go slowly when getting near the line on the crank pulley sprocket, turning the engine anticlockwise reduces the tension between crank, water pump and camshaft and of course adds backlash to the VVT system.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I actually only turned the camshaft via the crankshaft with the belt on. After I had marked everything and remove the belt, I was very careful not to turn anything while refitting the new belt. That said, I must admit I did crank counter-clockwise while finessing the position of things (getting back to my marks after cranking etc.)

It may be to do with backlash, though, sounding similar to what Jock described with the retarded/advanced positions of the pulley. I've got the belt back on and had the car running again this evening and things seem to be all ok (EML came on initially for intermittent cam shaft assembly fault but I'm hoping that was just due to the oil pressure after removing that seal/plug and having the rocker cover off. I cleared the code and it hasn't come back yet.) But, I did find that I had to turn the cam pulley a half tooth clockwise (with the timing tools fitted, so half a tooth of rotation allowed by the VVT range or whatever you would call that small amount of counter-sprung play) to get the belt tight on the water pump side. Without doing so the belt was surprisingly slack on that side. That cam pulley did get a LOT of counter-clockwise torque while I was trying to undo that torx bolt, so maybe there was some backlash as you say. Bit over my head if I'm honest, but the car is back together and fingers crossed all is well!

Yes fingers crossed. One tooth out either way wont cause valve to piston contact but you would get the EML light on and either pre ignition and or poor power. Remember when doing the phonic wheel learn the revs have to be above 5000rpm for so many seconds, is it 10?

Good luck.

I just checked the bolt on the wee cam pulley locking tool (mine's an allen headed one) and yup, mines a 1.50mm pitch too! Of course I didn't use it as I didn't slacken "that damned bolt" so I've no idea if it fits the female thread on our engines (My boys Punto or my Panda - Don't think I need it for the Panda though because it's euro4 with the solid cam pulley, still spins on the cam if the bolt is slackened though but you can hold it with a conventional pulley holding tool of the lever type).

You say you've only done one cam belt before and that on a V6. Was that the Rover 75 V6? If so, RESPECT to you sir!

Yes I have great respect for "Fred" - Don't really trust him to do things up with as he's quite heavy and this dulls out any feel for when things are going wrong. Actually bought him just a couple of years ago to undo a driveshaft hub nut which was so tight I had to use the length of black pipe too.

I have a real "thing" for Gates belts having used them professionally and never known one to fail. However I doubt if a big name like Bosch would have anything to do with a dodgy product so I'm sure you can be confident it'll be OK. (who knows maybe it's manufactured for them by Gates? doubt very much they make their own.)

From your description of how you fit the belt you sound as if you know exactly what you're doing so I'm sure you'll get it right this time. Whatever the outcome, don't beat yourself up over it! In fact I'm feeling slightly fed up just now because, about a year ago, when I knew both the Panda and Punto were needing their belts done I bought a cam pulley oil seal and crank shaft nose seal, at a good discount on line (I believe identical on both engines) so that if one of them needed it I would have it on hand so wouldn't be delayed. In the event both engines were totally oil tight so I didn't change any. About 6 weeks ago I was checking my boy's Punto's rusty sump (which is going to need renewing soon) only to find a small oil leak at the crank pulley (it's actually the oil pump) seal. Going to have to strip it all down again, engine mount, belt etc so I can remove the crank pulley to get at the seal! DOH! as Homer Simpson would say.

Anyway, I'm off to bed now - good luck with sorting it out. By the way, my sister in law has a 75 with the KV6 in it and guess what? it's needing it's belts done! Lucky she's down in north Devon and I'm up here in Edinburgh!

Thanks both!

I didn't actually venture off the driveway after the first belt change so I can't comment on power, but I did notice that the revs would drop and then raise back up while idling, almost as if it couldn't hold the lower idle. Difficult to describe. The car drops its revs to a lower idle again now that I've redone the belt, but holds the lower revs. I assume this is something to do with switching engine maps as it warms up or some such. I also noticed the engine struggled quite a bit more with the headlights on after the first belt change, and it's fine again now after redoing it. I shall have a better test of everything tomorrow, hopefully all will be well.

Jock, my cam pulley locking tool has the allen head too. It seemed as though it should use one of the bolt holes from the engine mount mount (err... sub mount?) but did not want to thread in. Looked as though those bolts were 1.25mm pitch but I may be wrong. No big deal though I suppose, not difficult to get an appropriate bolt to replace or accompany the one in the set.

The V6 was indeed a KV6! Although it was in an Mk2 MG ZS (Rover 45) rather than the 75. I believe the 75 has a 190bhp version, while mine was 180bhp. I still have the car, though it's SORN'd and in need of TLC. Unfortunately too expensive to run for me at the moment, hence the Panda! I've probably outgrown the body styling of the ZS too I suppose, though it remains a really fun car to drive!

Sorry to hear about the oil leak on the Punto! Always seems to be the way it goes. I would have likely done the same, too. As you said before, best to let sleeping dogs lie a lot of the time! I do hope the repair goes smoothly for you.

That KV6 belt change does have a very intimidating reputation! Honestly though, I remember thinking afterwards that it wasn't nearly as bad as I'd been led to believe. I did rent the timing tools for that one, though, since it's three belts due to the quad cams!

Isn't that strange. The car I had prior to my first Panda was a Rover 75 V6 2.5 Auto X499MFL Seen on many posts on The 75&ZT forum

Bloody hell - I've done everything mechanical to cars - including totally rebuilding several twin cam Alfa engines, likewise Fiat twin and single cam engines, timing belt/water pump on FIRE engines, fitted a BMW flat twin in the back of a 500, tuned an 850cc 600D, etc, etc - but I gave up maintaining cars a decade or more ago and the complication involved these days in something that was as simple as replacing a timing belt makes me glad I did. Compliments, by the way, to the expertise shown by the replies on this thread

IntroV said:

Jock, my cam pulley locking tool has the allen head too. It seemed as though it should use one of the bolt holes from the engine mount mount (err... sub mount?) but did not want to thread in. Looked as though those bolts were 1.25mm pitch but I may be wrong. No big deal though I suppose, not difficult to get an appropriate bolt to replace or accompany the one in the set.

Click to expand...

As a last resort consult the manual (so they say). I just looked at my Haynes manual and it does seem to show that little locking tool's bolt being screwed into the engine mounting hole just above the tensioner. I'll have that mount off when I do the seal on No1 son's Punto so I'll be trying it to see if it fits.

Last year, before I started on the cam belts, I had a look at what would be involved in undoing and subsequently torquing up the crank pulley (sprocket) bolt. Having had these off various engines over the years I know how tight they can be. Some seem to recon that the crank locking tool is strong enough to do the job. But, as it only uses the 6mm bolt which holds the belt cover and the aluminium lug it screws into on the front of the engine doesn't look all that robust, I don't think I'll be trying that. Of course you can jam the flywheel ring gear with a large screwdriver but this is awkward when it comes to angle tightening the bolt on reassembly (I work on my own). The Haynes manual shows a DIY flywheel locking tool which I decided to make. The Haynes one has only one "tooth" I decided - without thinking too deeply about it - to make one with two teeth so it would be strong! (The bolt goes up really tight!). What I hadn't thought about was that a considerable degree of accurate filing is needed to make one with two teeth because you have to accurately replicate the pitch of the ring gear teeth! Anyway here, for your delectation and my satisfaction, is the device I made - which, of course I then didn't need as the seals weren't leaking!:









Glad I made it now as I'll be using it when I do the boy's Punto seal.

babbo_umbro said:

Bloody hell - I've done everything mechanical to cars - fitted a BMW flat twin in the back of a 500

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I'd have loved to see that, did it go well? I nearly bought a Steyr Puch many years ago but ended up with a 1275 Cooper S instead. That led on to a few years of "mucking about" with "A" series engines which culminated with me owning an indecently fast Mini which I sold on to buy a Cortina 1500 GT (pre crossflow). Sadly the chap who bought the mini crashed it, going stupidly fast on a narrow highland road, and was killed. I was badly affected by that and stopped modifying cars for a while (still worked as a mechanic to earn my bread though) so the Cortina stayed pretty much stock. Then I was given an MOT failed Hillman Imp and the whole fascination with "improving" began again. At one time I had around 4 complete engines, 3 gearboxes, two stripped car's worth of parts and loads of performance parts like weber carbs, "hot" cams, etc, etc. In the end it all got very silly with a back garden, extended shed, and garage full of "bits". Mrs Jock was fine about it until one day, in a high wind, her washing blew against some of my "treasures" The ensuing "conversation" was not for the faint hearted!

That pretty much ended my performance orientated activities, I sold the lot and took up gardening as a recreational activity for a while! I still enjoy it! However I continue to maintain and repair all the family vehicles (6 at this time) and find myself rather surprised how much pleasure I derive from just having cars that run "right". I'm still into making small "improvements" to what the manufacturer thought was "acceptable" (but somewhat short of "good practice"). Just to keep my hand in though, I've become interested in recommissioning/repairing old horticultural machines - recently brought back to life a 1950's/1960's Merry Tiller Cultivator which was being scrapped. and I'll be shortly starting on a 1950's NSU Quickly moped (I think it's the rare "Peanut tank" machine) which is "resting" in my shed just now.

Some say "You're crazy Jock, at nearly 73 years old you should be taking it easy now!" But I think keeping reasonably busy, active and engaged with something that really interests you is what keeps you going. I've seen too many of the people I used to work with/knew socially who went to sit in the bar at the local golf/bowling clubs develop "beer bellies" and become generally "flabby" with shortness of breath. Then shortly I'm making another trip up to the crematorium to say cheerio!

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

I'd have loved to see that, did it go well? I nearly bought a Steyr Puch many years ago but ended up with a 1275 Cooper S instead. ....

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It went extremely well - very similar to the Steyr-Puch. 40-odd HP compared with 18 of the Fiat engine - I fitted the BMW motor with a couple of Amal Monobloc carbs - lovely little engine - all roller and ball bearings - would do 7000 rpm. Car was lower and wider, of course. The much lower centre of gravity of the flat twin helped the handling and all together it would eat Mini Coopers for breakfast - which was nice.

One of my very few British-made cars was a Cox GTM with a 970 Cooper S enngine in the back - another very sweet motor - but it had a habit of dumping its coolant in the road.

babbo_umbro said:

One of my very few British-made cars was a Cox GTM with a 970 Cooper S enngine in the back - another very sweet motor - but it had a habit of dumping its coolant in the road.

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I remember the Cox, never even sat in one but it was a pretty looking little car. looked like a slightly smaller Ginetta G15? - a car I aspired to when I was in Imp mode.

A friend had a 970S when I had the 1275. The 970 (which I seem to remember was specifically produced to comply with a racing specification?) was a much smoother engine when rev'd but just lacked the "grunt" (if any "A" series can be said to have "grunt"?) of the 1275. He could never keep up with me.