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Old 06-06-2017   #16
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2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Firm but polite is always the best way. Losing it will get you nowhere in these situations.

I have offered to start paying for parts to be changed with the expectation of a refund as and when we change the part that fixes the problem. They told me that they're unwilling at the moment to start taking money off me to change parts that aren't throwing any codes. However, this is the route I will be insisting we go down if they can't offer me a better solution.



I once had a Peugeot 306 that would slip the clutch for a split second on acceleration. The dealer told me they couldn't feel it.

I insisted the problem was there and that I wanted them to investigate further. They said they could strip it down, but that I'd have to foot the bill if they couldn't find anything wrong with it.

They stripped it down, and found oil contamination on the clutch plate. A new clutch was fitted under warranty.
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Last edited by Ventmore; 06-06-2017 at 15:09.
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Old 06-06-2017   #17
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by Ventmore View Post
I'm putting it down to the warm weather we've been having lately
And there was me thinking it might be improving when there was wet weather!

She will need to go back in for a dealer visit soon with a rear passenger door that now can't be opened from the outside. I'll have another go at the dealer when I call to make that appointment and would be highly interested to hear if you make any progress.
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Last edited by MikeySkiBoy; 06-06-2017 at 19:59.
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Old 06-06-2017   #18
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by MikeySkiBoy View Post
It seems that having my cheapo Bluetooth OBD dongle connected considerably improves matters. It's almost like a different car under my right foot. You can still feel that the occasional stumble is coming, but it rarely actually comes to much and she has been mostly rattling along quite nicely. Unfortunately there is nothing much of any interest to see on Torque Lite - in fact, nothing at all so far.

That doesn't help you much, but there might be a clue in the fact that things are clearly better here when the OBD is connected. It would look to me as if it is the ECU, or the processing performed by the firmware on it, that is the source of the problem and that the OBD dongle is somehow affecting things.

Anyone have any ideas why having my BT OBD in circuit might be helping things?

Anyone have any ideas if leaving it there permanently might be a bad idea?
Interestng,
Firstly there is no problem leaving a OBDII interface plugged in.
The better operation with it connected could be related to the termination and loading of the CAN bus. Any interface will load the bus to some extent and the cheap far eastern ones tend to have a 120 Ohm termination resistor fitted. This resistor should not be fitted but might be causing the effect you are seeing. If you have a multimeter check the resistance between pins 6 and 14 on the interface. If it is less than 200 Ohms the resistor is fitted. This could have a couple of effects. One is loading the bus and reducing any noise pick-up, the other is loading it enough to interfere with some of the data transmission and thus reduce the amount of data to/from the ECU.
Where re you located? I'm near Cambridge and could put a break-out box and oscilloscope (and of course Multiecuscan) and try to see whats going on. I love a challenge.

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Old 06-06-2017   #19
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by babbo_umbro View Post
That would be driving me absolutely ape sh-t. There's nothing worse than this sort of very specific, or intermittent, engine problem. Some years ago I had a Cinquecento Sporting that I knew had a slight misfire under certain load and throttle conditions. The dealer refused to recognise the fault, which I was sure was to do with the high-tension leads to the plugs. After an immense amount of toing and froing I eventually said, "Look, I'll pay for a new set of leads and clips that run the leads along beside the cam cover. If I can't show your service manager the difference we'll call it quits; if it solves the problem I get my money back." I got my money back.

Good luck - I've always found that firm but polite works best plus making sure the dealer knows you're not going to go away.
That sounds like a badly seated valve.
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Old 06-06-2017   #20
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by MikeySkiBoy View Post
And there was me thinking it might be improving when there was wet weather!

She will need to go back in for a dealer visit soon with a rear passenger door that now can't be opened from the outside. I'll have another go at the dealer when I call to make that appointment and would be highly interested to hear if you make any progress.


I'll definitely keep you posted. It's improved for now, but I suspect that's temporary. The case is still open with Fiat, and shall remain so until I'm satisfied that it's fixed.
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Old 06-06-2017   #21
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
there is no problem leaving a OBDII interface plugged in
Great!

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
If you have a multimeter check the resistance between pins 6 and 14 on the interface
I'll try to get a meter onto those pins tomorrow and see what it says.

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
Where re you located? I'm near Cambridge and could put a break-out box and oscilloscope (and of course Multiecuscan) and try to see whats going on. I love a challenge.
Unless you have very long leads, we have a bit of a problem! I'm around 500 miles away, just outside Aberdeen! Thanks for the offer of investigating further, but it's probably not very practical.

Update..... I've just been out in the Panda and it really wasn't a happy bunny tonight, even with the Bluetooth OBD plugged in and in the heavy rain we have at the moment. Lots of stuttering as the pedal was being depressed after being up a bit and then feeling rough as she is accelerating or cruising, as if she had a petrol engine with a cylinder going intermittently AWOL, for whatever reason. That's the first big-ish wobbly since my cheapie OBD sender was installed about a week ago.

Unfortunately, I didn't have my tablet to see if it was reporting any issues. I'll try again tomorrow.
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Old 07-06-2017   #22
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
check the resistance between pins 6 and 14 on the interface. If it is less than 200 Ohms the resistor is fitted.
There is indeed 120Ω across pins 6 and 14.
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Old 07-06-2017   #23
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

If leaving the OBD gadget plugged in, remember that the connection has a permanently live pin which in the case of the Innovate Motorsports WiFi unit I used, meant it remained on and transmitting its WiFi network all the time. This might also be the case with the Bluetooth signal on yours. Mine had enough of a current draw to flatten the battery if I didn't use the car for a week or so. Had to remember to unplug it after that.....

Just a thought.
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Old 07-06-2017   #24
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by MikeySkiBoy View Post
There is indeed 120Ω across pins 6 and 14.
Hi,
That explains why it is making a difference. The question is still what is the basic fault. I'd tend towards interference. The first thing to check is earths / grounds and then connectors for corrosion.
Check / clean all earth connections including ECU mounting bolts, battery terminal, Battery to chassis lead, engine/gearbox to chassis lead(s)/strap(s).


Following that you are down to checking all the ECU and engine sensor connectors for dirt, corrosion or loose wires.
If that does not work, it's serious diagnostics including using an oscilloscope to look for noise.


Robert G8RPI.
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Old 08-06-2017   #25
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
Hi,
That explains why it is making a difference. The question is still what is the basic fault. I'd tend towards interference. The first thing to check is earths / grounds and then connectors for corrosion.
Check / clean all earth connections including ECU mounting bolts, battery terminal, Battery to chassis lead, engine/gearbox to chassis lead(s)/strap(s).


Following that you are down to checking all the ECU and engine sensor connectors for dirt, corrosion or loose wires.
If that does not work, it's serious diagnostics including using an oscilloscope to look for noise.


Robert G8RPI.
Absolutely. Proper way to do diagnostic. Today's mechanics plug in the PC and if nothing shows up they are stumped. They seem to have no skills out with reading codes then when a real fault shows up the customer is rarely helped.
A scope and common sense will often find electronic issues long before codes are written to the ECU
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Old 08-06-2017   #26
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

I forgot to shove the OBDII plug back in after metering it yesterday and the car was fine on the way home. Left it out again this morning and it's been OK all day.

Maybe the OBDII being plugged is another bum-steer and it is just playing me along at the moment. Extremely frustrating!
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Old 09-06-2017   #27
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Sounds like an intermittent fault. Very much like how electronics can be.
I'd be inclined to spend some time as Robert says and check connections, earths and look for corroded plugs etc. Half an hour and a can of De-oxit or WD40 may well effect a cure.
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Old 09-06-2017   #28
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Mines been driving well for last week or so, with only the odd very slight stutter on a morning.

I got in it this morning, and could feel as soon as I started moving that it was going to have issues.

Unfortunately, I'd been called out about 20mins late for work, and had zero time to plug in and grab any readings.

As I suspected, it spent the first few minutes stuttering and surging.
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Old 09-06-2017   #29
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Re: 2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by Ventmore View Post
Mines been driving well for last week or so, with only the odd very slight stutter on a morning.

I got in it this morning, and could feel as soon as I started moving that it was going to have issues.

Unfortunately, I'd been called out about 20mins late for work, and had zero time to plug in and grab any readings.

As I suspected, it spent the first few minutes stuttering and surging.
I'd begin to wonder if it was something old-fashioned, like a fuel supply issue, or a dodgy piece of cable - or connectors/earthing as mentioned previously. Do the electronics monitor fuel pressure?
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Old 09-06-2017   #30
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2016 Panda 4x4 hesitation/surging/running issues

Quote Originally Posted by babbo_umbro View Post
I'd begin to wonder if it was something old-fashioned, like a fuel supply issue, or a dodgy piece of cable - or connectors/earthing as mentioned previously. Do the electronics monitor fuel pressure?


I can't monitor fuel pressures with the equipment I have, but I'm sure the dealers box of tricks will.

After 5 minutes or so of driving, the issues mainly clear up, which makes me think there's something mechanical sticking, then freeing up under pressure, or as the engine temperature rises.

I do still get some issues on the road after driving a while, but the motorway speed surges seems to have completely stopped.

I have had a few times where I've been accelerating, and the car has just seemed flat. I actually caught one of those times with my OBD device.

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The grey line is engine load, and the purple line is MAP. The first peak is 2nd gear, the second is 3rd, and he third is 4th.

I was accelerating up an incline with my foot on the floor. In 2nd gear, the engine load hits 94% then fluctuates and drops to 74%. In 3rd, it again hits 94%, then drops to 76%. In 4th, it hits 100% and stays there, and I could clearly feel that it was then giving me everything it had.

This could be a related issue, but I'm also wondering if it could have just been a temperature issue. It was the hottest day we've had in a while, and the car was reading 27.5C in the external temperature gauge. Also, the orange line on the graph is intake air temperature, and at the first peak, it was reading 124F, but had dropped to 111F by the time I hit 4th gear.
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Last edited by Ventmore; 09-06-2017 at 11:13.
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