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Old 02-08-2015   #31
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

My Mrs gets the same average mpg (low 30s) in her X3 3.0d that i typically see in the Panda. Okay, she intersperses a few more longer journeys than the Panda, but to counter this she also tows a horse box each week...

In my view, the Panda T/A drinks fuel in a way that other small (and large) cars don't.

Another example is a local pal who drives a base model Skoda Citigo over exactly the same commute to the railway station and back each day. He regularly gets mid 50 to the gallon.

FIAT should buy in your engines from BMW or VW if they can't figure out how to do it themselves!! They would appear to pursue CO2 ratings over actual fuel economy.

Ok, some words said in jest here, but I don't think i'm alone in these views...
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Old 03-08-2015   #32
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

I think there's something in what you write, however, as the TA gives the - heavier, less aerodynamic and slightly less efficient chassis-wise - 4x4 straight line performance that's within a gnat's cock of the previous model 100HP up to 90 mph - I've done 27k miles in the 4x4 and did 50+k in the 100HP - I don't think it does too badly.
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Old 03-08-2015   #33
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

Quote Originally Posted by 4x4Panda View Post
In my view, the Panda T/A drinks fuel in a way that other small (and large) cars don't
Even allowing for the house-brick aerodynamics, the extra weight and friction of the 4x4 mechanicals, and the fact that Fiat manage to squeeze 85hp (or 90 in the Cross) from a small engine, the fuel economy is still pants when doing anything other than a steady cruise below 60 mph. It's instructive to look at the instant consumption read-out when accelerating or going uphill. There's a long, gentle climb on a dual carriageway near where I live. It's not much of a climb - this is Suffolk, after all - but even being very gentle on the throttle, in order to retain a constant speed the fuel consumption drops to well below 10 mpg!
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Old 03-08-2015   #34
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

To Crossman: my 'trick' is to avoid going over 2000 rpm* (MJ engine) and also not to labour it below 1400 or so -- basically following or pre-empting the 'gear change' indicator). As revs rise there a point where suddenly the engine note changes to become noticeably more 'rattly' - this happens between about 1800 and 2000 rpm but depends on engine 'load'. Change gear at or just before then and it seems to be happy. Remember, diesels give best pulling power at low revs - no point going about 2000 rpm as lower revs in next gear will actually give more 'oomph'.

*clearly once in top, you cross 2000 rpm at about 55mph - so from there on, yes the revs rise
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Old 03-08-2015   #35
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

So far I'm getting c 40 mpg (700miles on the clock, no stop start and v. little eco button). Comparing it with my old 1.2 2WD panda - I used to get c50-55mpg on local easy-ish running and 45 -50 on longer fast journeys (70/80mph) or more spirited driving. The strength of the 1.2 IMO was consistency (and a sweet engine), the temptation with the TA is using the "thrust" which I think affects the mpg worse than a heavy foot in the 1.2. I don't think the old version 1.2 4x4 would have got near the 2WD for mpg (or performance) and I would be interested to see what a 2wd TA panda gets vs the 4x4s... Personally I think the 4x4 extra weight and transmission drag will make a difference.

(Still wondering if use of the eco button would make much difference to economy... will have to give it a decent go sometime)
If I get to average around 40 - 45 I will be happy, even 40 would do.

regards

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Old 03-08-2015   #36
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

Quote Originally Posted by PandaMambo View Post
So far I'm getting c 40 mpg (700miles on the clock, no stop start and v. little eco button). Comparing it with my old 1.2 2WD panda - I used to get c50-55mpg on local easy-ish running and 45 -50 on longer fast journeys (70/80mph) or more spirited driving. The strength of the 1.2 IMO was consistency (and a sweet engine), the temptation with the TA is using the "thrust" which I think affects the mpg worse than a heavy foot in the 1.2. I don't think the old version 1.2 4x4 would have got near the 2WD for mpg (or performance) and I would be interested to see what a 2wd TA panda gets vs the 4x4s... Personally I think the 4x4 extra weight and transmission drag will make a difference.

(Still wondering if use of the eco button would make much difference to economy... will have to give it a decent go sometime)
If I get to average around 40 - 45 I will be happy, even 40 would do.

regards

Roger
40 is quite attainable if you're just slightly light footed, with 42 available when (if) the weather's hot.
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Old 04-08-2015   #37
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

I've just completed a return journey to the Peak District and back in the Cross TA. Two passengers plus driver for the journey, then four of us in the Peaks. A total distance of just over 400 miles and average 52.2 mpg. The driving was mostly A roads including a 40 mile stretch of the A1. The journey time from Norwich to Matlock was three hours and from Castleton back to Norwich 3.30 minutes. Both journey times in very close agreement with that predicted by the satnav and by Google maps. Admittedly the journey was traffic free but it also included a lot of steep climbs in the Peak District and access down gravel roads to quarries.
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Old 04-08-2015   #38
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

I think that so much of this is down to driving style. In my own experience of driving a TwinAir 4x4, I have found that the engine is quite capable of producing averages of 50mpg+, but it's also very easy to drop that down to 40-or-so-mpg if being less cautious.

I firmly believe that the "Eco" button does help, not so much by changing the parameters, but by delivering a more graduated throttle response, allowing more precise modulation of the throttle to maintain speed or gently accelerate. That's why some get similar mpg with it turned off - you can achieve the same result by being feather-light on the throttle.

The TwinAir is deceptive in it's delivery - even in Eco-mode, I've found it's possible to keep up with the flow of traffic on small throttle openings, delivering much better mpg. It just delivers that in a deceptive way. And this is where I think many go 'wrong' - because the 85/90bhp performance is there, along with corresponding torque at low revs and moderate-large throttle openings, coupled to having the Eco-function switched off, we use more fuel than strictly necessary. I wouldn't be surprised if the TwinAir delivers performance not dissimilar to the 1.2 4-cyl engine, whilst the TwinAir is in Eco, with corresponding mpg, but it feels slower because of that deceptive delivery?

The best I've had over ~180miles was 58mpg over mostly motorway, sitting at 50mph through roadworks and 60-70mph on open motorway. That's not far off Fiat's claims.... Remember that all cars nowadays are tuned to deliver under test conditions which involves acceleration cycles probably slower than those typically used day-to-day on the road. Also, "extra-urban" on those tests is a steady 56mph, not the 70+mph that most are trying to maintain and expect that same economy.
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Last edited by Panda 4x4 TA Antarctica; 04-08-2015 at 01:27.
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Old 04-08-2015   #39
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

Sorry, but extra urban isn't at constant 56mph (that was the old test, many years back)

The full test (urban and extra urban) is described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Eu..._Driving_Cycle . Key to note is the whole 'journey' is only 11km long, and a good amount of time is sat stationary with the car in neutral during the 'urban' part (which of course means the engine turns off with stop-start). It only spends 10 seconds at 120kph (about 70mph) - the overall average is just 20mph. Its hardly 'realistic' of most people's driving.
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Old 04-08-2015   #40
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

My mistake, Herts Hillhopper - I stand corrected! However, the principle remains - the test is not conducted at high-speeds for long journeys, so expecting 65.7mpg (the test result for a 4x4 TwinAir on extra-urban cycle) iwhilst cruising at 70+mph is impractical. I've always viewed it that if it is possible to get to the combined cycle result on a longer run, you're doing well, in this case 57.6mpg (looking at the brochure) - I've found that possible with careful driving at a steady 60-70mph.

Regardless, considering I have a friend with a Diesel Freeleander that struggles to top 30mpg, we're not doing too bad, eh?!
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Old 04-08-2015   #41
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

PS - the link makes for really interesting reading - no hills, no wind and VERY slow acceleration (0-70 km/h - equivalent to 43mp/h - in 41 seconds!) that is very light throttle work!
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Old 04-08-2015   #42
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

Quote Originally Posted by PaulD View Post
I've just completed a return journey to the Peak District and back in the Cross TA. Two passengers plus driver for the journey, then four of us in the Peaks. A total distance of just over 400 miles and average 52.2 mpg.
Wow! Swap?
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Old 04-08-2015   #43
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

After about 800 miles in my TA 4x4 the mpg readout is steady at 43.2

After a similar mileage my wife's Trekking TA is steady at 46.3
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Old 04-08-2015   #44
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

Again I tried the Miss Daisy driving style this morning, trying not to go over the 2000 rpm but also not labouring, managed to get 48.3 mpg. Even though it has only covered about 300 miles, my old 4x4 MJ did about the same at 16,000. Can only put it down to extreme daisy driving or I should have got the TA instead, just can't understand how you can get around the 50 mpg mark with people and luggage on board from the TA, could just be driving style
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Old 04-08-2015   #45
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Re: 4x4 ta, mpg question

I think 'TA Antarctica' sums it up perfectly. Also driving conditions have a huge impact on driving style and mpg. Almost all my journeys involve a minimum distance of 25 miles on low traffic routes. Once at 50-60 mph I can readily maintain a constant speed without the need for constant adjustments, acceleration and deceleration etc. that are necessary when traffic is heavy. I have plenty of time to anticipate junctions, roundabouts etc. coasting up and accelerating away without the need to stop

Just a little traffic on my commute has a noticeable effect on economy.

Incidentally who did I see in a yellow Cross on the A47 tonight, about 7pm, driving eastwards in the direction of Norwich?
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