Register Login
Mr FIAT - Your #1 source for vintage car parts
Comment
 
Guide Tools
<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Dualogic troubleshooting Guide<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
Dualogic troubleshooting Guide
Published by tonico77
05-06-2016
Difficulty Level: 2

User Rated:Unrated

Show Printable Version  Email this Page 
Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

I decided to write this guide to help with Dualogic gearbox problems after seeing a Brazilian mechanic that has a youtube channel and deals with Dualogic gearbox repairs. He channel is very popular (search Motortech dualogic) and has even had clients transport their cars from Sao Paulo all the way to his garage (over 1500km). He says that many garages have no idea on how to repair these gearboxes. They damage components or install them wrongly and just lie to their customers.
He also says in that all the gear boxes he has repaired he has never once had to change a gearbox ECU even when customers brought the cars and said that the diagnostic software shows a DTC error as the ECU being damaged. His basic guide on how to trouble shoot and repair is the following:


Do a visual exam looking for leaks broken wires on the gearbox.

Connect the diagnostic software,

Check for error codes (though he has had cases where the gearbox had a problem but no error codes)

Check the system pressure by selecting 1 gear, R and Neutral the pressure should not drop below 36 and should immediately pressurize to 46/48 bar then drop slowing to 38 before the electric motor kicks in. Switch off engine the pressure should remain steady and drop only 2-3 bars.

(The system works with a line pressure ranging from 36.5 to 46 bars (on some models 48 bars) under normal conditions. In Recovery mode, the system will perform to its best at a pressure of 75 bars. The electric pump is turned on when the pressure drops below 36.5 bars and off when the pressure in the circuit reaches 46 bars.)

Next check the clutch degradation index , This can tell us if the clutch needs to be changed. Usually a value above 6000 means the clutch is worn. This valve should not be trusted 100% unless you have been the only owner and know when the clutch was changed and that no one has reset this value.

He then disassembles the whole robot cleans all the parts very well changes worn o rings. Checks sensors and Solenoid Valves.

One very important check is to make sure that when the robot unit is removed you can manually select and engage the gears. If you cannot then the robot will also not be able. The gearbox will then have to be repaired.

90 of the time he also removes the clutch to check the condition and also the condition of the clutch position sensor to check for leaks (this depends of the type of robot as some units like CFC300 have the clutch position sensor on the Clutch actuator inside the gearbox and other have the sensor on the - Master-Slave system.
In Master-Slave system hydraulic fluid pushes a piston which then push DOT4 brake fluid which in turn pushes the CSC (Clutch slave cylinder) actuator inside the gearbox. The clutch position sensor is incorporated into the Master-Slave system
In the other system hydraulic fluid pushes the CSC (Clutch slave cylinder) actuator directly. The clutch position sensor is incorporated into the CSC.
He then refits everything and calibrates the system.

SELF-ADJUSTMENTS
As follows:

• Clutch bleeding (check oil level)
• End of line/service self-adjustment (check oil level)
• Clutch self-adjustment (kiss point)
• Clutch wear index calculation



The best place to have the gearbox fixed would be an automatic gearbox specialist. They have experience in dissembling and cleaning automatic transmission valve bodies (which the Solenoid Valve Unit is very similar.



First you should download the service manual to have an understanding of how the gear box works. Search for M20 Dualogic gearbox and M40 Dualogic. The difference between these 2 is that the M20 has the gearbox Ecu bolted onto the Solenoid Valve Unit. To accesses the electro valves or change the pressure sensor the ecu must be pulled out, using a pluller.
These are the problems that can go wrong and how to check them.




Gear box errors

Power unit (Pump).
Hydraulic tank: Is their fluid inside? Is it broken or cracked, Are the rubber hoses in good condition no holes cuts.
Electric motor: Does the electric motor run when the door is open, Are there any oil leaks between the motor and pump. (seal condition?)You can also check that the motor runs using diagnostic software,
Accumulator: The only way to check the accumulator is to depressurize the system and remove it, then weight it. It should weight around 600g to 700g more than this and it has a leak inside
One way valve and filter: Only way to check is disassembly the valve and check. Fiat does not sell the valve, You have to buy the whole power unit body.
(one some models the accumulator is located on the solenoid valve unit)


Solenoid Valve Unit
Solenoid valve.: Are the valves working, using the diag, software you can check each valve by listing. Any leaks. 90% percent of the internals leaks that the Brazilian garage has is with the selector rod leaking. The seals go and fluid ends up damaging the position sensor. The whole unit has to be disassembled cleaned very well and new o rings fitted.


Gear shifter

The Selected gear must be the same as the one that has been selected by the Solenoid Valve Unit. This means the the gearbox ECU must also see what gear you have selected you can test this using the diagnostic software. The gear selector use hall effect sensor and also a and small micro controller.


Cables and Input sensors signals

Check cabling and earth point no broken cables
Check if you can get a reading from all of these sensor using diag software some time just one broken sensor and the car will not even start or the gearbox won’t work correctly


Input signals

For logical operations, the system must use the following incoming signals from other systems of the vehicle:

• Clutch revolution sensor (the value is read from the primary shaft of the gearbox)
• Number of engine revolutions - Crankshaft sensor (incoming signal from the engine control unit via the C-CAN
network).
• Brake pedal switch (two signals: one separate - pin 9 of vehicle connector, the other via the CCAN network).
• Accelerator pedal position.
• Vehicle speed (abs wheel speed sensors)
• Engine temperature and outside temperture sensor )used to calculate the oil temp, and also clucth temp.


Specific sensors of the automated gearbox

• Position sensor for: clutch, engagement and selection.
• Position sensor for gear engagement position
• Position sensor for gear selection position.
• Line pressure sensor

For example, to check whether clutch is slipping (for a Selespeed ECU) move "Engine rpm" and "Clutch disk speed" meters to the same tab, activate and zoom them, start scan and drive the car for some time. If the clutch speed is lower than engine speed for non-idle, the clutch might be slipping and considered for replacement.



Here is a trouble shooting guide I found on the internet for the Ferrari F1 system it is based on the sleespeed system. (It was in German, so I tried to translate the best I could) They also say that the best oil to use in the system is total synthetic hydraulic oil like Liqui Moly Central Hydraulic Oil. He says that Automatic transmission fluid (like tutela cs selespeed oil which is a Synthetic Dexron 3 type auto fluid) is not the right one because the system has no gears and is purely an hydraulic system were as ATf fulid is made to also lubricate gears.

Flashing gear indicator / gears can be skipped with a sense of delay arises
Is ALWAYS a sensor failure!
Most sensor gear selector or gear position (switch-on sensor or sensor choice)
in rare cases, a failure of the clutch position sensor
is often also the multipolar connector is damaged (Contact Care?)

Gears are ejected in Driving
Accumulator defective
Too little oil in the system

Hydraulic pump runs only briefly at
Accumulator defective
Pump relay defective (rare)

"Pump relay is jammed" error stored in ECU
Accumulator defective
Pump relay defective (rare)

No shift possible / Gearbox stuck in "N" and blocked
Hydraulic pump defective
Pump relay defective
Gearbox defective (very rarely)

Gear selecting is not possible via shift selector lever but is possible using diagnostic software.
Shift / selector lever defective (check connector)
often error stored in the system -> "switch lever X" (X = number)

Pump runs constantly (open loop)
Pressure sensor defective


Starting almost impossible - chatter clutch - only in high speeds approachable
EV0 defective valve of the clutch control
old oil in the system -> COMPLETE SWAP!
Air in the system

System turns off unexpectedly (even when parked ignition)
Accumulator defective

A defect of the pressure accumulator draws in most cases, as a result of error, a defective hydraulic pump itself!

Accumulator defects are "creeping" defects which are noticed by the user until it is too late.

To prevent mistakes ....

Change it at least every 20Tkm the hydraulic oil in the circuit
Maintain regularly all contacts / connector on the F1 / Selespeed
swap them the gear oil (according to the manufacturer), or at the latest after 60Tkm
let them calibrate their F1 system regularly
make it the type of oil in the F1 system "Liqui Moly Central Hydraulic Oil" to

How this can maybe help someone.
Thanks varesecrazy thanked for this post
Likes Fiat 00, omega22, Bergi liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Old 08-06-2016   #1
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

tonico77: I found your information very useful, thanks. My wife owns a Panda 2011. She doesn't make more than 7,000 km per year, so the car is now around 30T km. Last Thursday she went to her job and when I was going out I saw there was oil spilt on the ground of her parking place. I called her and asked her not to move the car (his job is only 4 km from home), she made it with the car in that situation. On Saturday I disassembled the area where the Dualogic robot is located and I have seen there is oil missing from the oil reservoir tank. My question is if you know where can I get information about what to replace (i.e. to find the oil leakage). I bouth the Panda workshop manual from Haynes, but it doesn't include information about Dualogic.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 09-06-2016   #2
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Portugal 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Your car has the CFC328 Dualogic robot. This is also the one used in the 1.4 Grande Punto. This unit is usually fitted to the C514 gearbox. I can send you a PM of diagrams of the robot unit for you to get a sense on were the parts are located.

The only guides i have is of the CFC300 which used on the M20 6 speed gearbox and quite different from yours. I also have the M40 which is very similar to your robot the only difference is that the accumulator on the CFC328 is located on the Solenoid Valve Unit and it does not nave a Clutch actuator Master-slave system.


I would suggest that you buy some diagnostic cables and get the Multiecuscan or Alfaobd software if you dont already have it.

To try and find the leak buy 1 bottle (1L) of Tutela CS Speed fluid and fill the tank up to the MAX line. Try to wash the unit to remove any dirt and to be eaiser to see the leak. Switch the ignition to MAR and select 1 gear Reverse and Neutral gears so the the fluid can be pumped around the unit. Then to to see where the fluid is leaking from.

Some places where it could be leaking; Tank, pipes from the tank. Electric motor to pump. CSC (clutch slave cylinder) Look near the transmission bell housing


You first have to try to find the leak before changing any part.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

tonico77 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 09-06-2016   #3
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Portugal 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

I found the guide for your gearbox.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

tonico77 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 09-06-2016   #4
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Thanks a lot tonico77. I will do as you advise.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 09-06-2016   #5
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Thanks tonico77. What should I do to get it?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 09-06-2016   #6
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Portugal 
Question Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Here is an update to some of the information regarding the dualogic units.

CFC300 fitted to the M20 gearbox (Grande Punto 1.3 Multijet 90cv engine)

• Working hydraulic pressure from 36.5 to 46 bars
• Operating temperature from -30˚C to + 105 ˚C
• Cranking is must be possible also at -30°C
• The capacity of the pump is >0.81 l/min at 45 bars, 3,450 rpm and oil at 60 °C
• The accumulator volume is 250 cm³ preloaded at 24 [bar] at 20°C



CFC328 fitted to the C514 gearbox (500, Panda, Grande Punto)

• Working hydraulic pressure from 41 to 51 bars
• Operating temperature from -30˚C to + 125 ˚C
• Cranking is must be possible also at -30°C
• The pump flow rate is 0.8 l/min at 60°C
• The accumulator volume is 280 cm³ preloaded at 27 bar at 25°C
Accumulator is fitted to solenoid valve unit.


CFC348 fitted to the M40 Gearbox (Ducato)

• Working hydraulic pressure from 36 to 40 bars
• Operating temperature from -30˚C to + 105 ˚C
• Cranking is must be possible also at -30°C
• Pump capacity is >0,81 l/min at 45 bar, 3450 rpm and fluid at 60 °C
• The accumulator volume is 250 cm³ preloaded at 24 bar at 20°C

CFC319 fitted to many cars in South America Palio, Linea, Sitlo

• Working hydraulic pressure from 35 to 50 bars
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

tonico77 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 10-06-2016   #7
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Hi tonico77. Today we (a friend of mine that owns a scanner and me) added the oil that was need to reach the MAX mark (it was necessary 450 ml). Then scanned the car and found error code P1773 (hydraulic circut pressure), deleted the error and started up the engine and move the shift lever to N and R a few times. No leakage happened.
Then drove the car on the streets and it was like normal, nothing wrong. We drove 50 km while scanning permanently and no error code. I am really puzzled. Any suggestion about what to do?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 11-06-2016   #8
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Portugal 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Hi Chipotec0, 450ml seem like you have or had a big leak. i would suggest you do a pressure test, like in the video. Does your friend have AlfaOBD or Multiecuscan? Connect the scanner software and check the pressure by selecting 1 gear, R and Neutral the pressure should drop below 40 and should immediately pressurize to 50 bar then drop slowing to 40 before the electric motor kicks in. Switch off engine the pressure should remain steady and drop only 2-3 bars. (Is the electric motor always working?)

Since you say that you did not find any leak I think that the accumulator chamber could have a leak and the oil filled the chamber. The only way be be sure is to remove the accumulator and weighing it. It should weight around 660-700grams usually when it has a leak it weigh up to 900grams(First depressurize the system by using using diagnostic software. or discounting the battery overnight)

When you remove the accumulator you can also try to put a screw drive through the accumulator hole, you should feel resistance (the rubber inside) if you feel no resistance the the accumulator has a leak.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

tonico77 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-06-2016   #9
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Thanks tonico77. We found the leak and it is in the part that someone else reported before. I uploaded the picture I got from Internet because it is the same problem. Can you please check the picture I've uploaded and tell me if you know how to disassemble that part to check the o-rings or seals? I don't think the problem is the accumulator because the car never had any problem and I've learned that when the accumulator is gone the can cannot make the shifts. Would it be possible that you send me an e-mail to rcq71@aol.com in order to show you more pictures?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-06-2016   #10
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Hi tonico77. I want to ask you if you know is there any information about the procedure to replace the oil for the Liqui Moly as it is advised in your Dualogic Trouble Shooting Guide?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-06-2016   #11
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Mexico 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Please type this in the search box of this forum and you will find people with the same problem I have: Dualogic repair manual? Part number 60346822
I believe someone must make a repair manual for Dualogic as it seems to fail all over the world: Egypt, Singapore, Mιxico...
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Chipotec0 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-06-2016   #12
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Portugal 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Hi Chipotec0,

As I had said in my first post 90% percent of the internals leaks that the Brazilian garage has is with the selector rod leaking. The seals go and fluid ends up damaging the position sensor. The leak you have seems to be also from the Selection potentiometer. In the CFC328 dualogic the selection poteniometer is located in the Mechanical unit of the robot. This unit is supposed to be dry it only has a long metal shaft with the Engagement piston connection finger which connect with the pistions on the SOLENOID VALVE BODY. I think that what has happened is that the o rings on those pistons are bad and oil is leaking onto the mechanical unit and then out the sensor.

You maybe could be lucky and only change the sensor Part (part number 71732926)or buy a Viton O ring for the sensor but I don΄t think that will solve your problem.




I will try to explain how the CFC328 Robot works and where the problem is. (The leak problem is basically the same in all the units the only difference were the selector rod is located)

Power unit

The power unit feeds the hydraulic power needed to actuate the gear shifts and the clutch.
The unit consists of:
• a pump (electrical motor and geared pump)
• an oil reservoir.




SOLENOID VALVE BODY
The functions of this subsystem include:
• Control and actuation of the clutch position
• Forced control of gear shifts and range selection
• Accumulation of hydraulic energy/power for controlling the actuators.
The components of the solenoid valve unit are:
• Clutch actuator (simple acting piston)
• Flow rate proportioning solenoid valve for clutch actuator control
• Gear shift actuator (dual acting piston)
• Two pressure proportioning solenoid valves for controlling the shift actuator: even gear pressure
proportioning solenoid valve (2 - 4 - R) and odd gear proportioning solenoid valve (1 - 3 - 5)
• Two potentiometer sensors for detecting the shift position and the clutch stroke position
• Accumulator
• Line pressure sensor (0-80 bars)
• Check valve.






Mechanical unit
The mechanical unit interfaces with the gearbox to shift gears and change range.
It consists of:
• Gear selection system ("S" cam)
• Control shaft
• Connecting finger to shift pistons and gear holding system
• Engagement finger
• On-off electromagnet for controlling the gear selection system (brake)
• Reverse switch
• Selection potentiometer (THIS IS WHERE THE LEAK HAPPENS)

The robot has solenoid valves (supplied with the necessary hydraulic power by a electric pump and an accumulator) that divert the hydraulic oil which moves a two piston which then moves a shaft that select the gears.


These pistons have seals, when these seals leak the oil will flow into the mechanical unit and then out through these sensor. Since the oil is under high pressure it will leak where their is least resistance which is usually the sensor (poteniometer). The location where the sensor is located should be dry.













I think the only option you have is to disassemble the whole unit and check all the seals. There are mechanics that are specialist in just doing dualogic gear boxes. In the UK there is one on ebay that charges £400. One could try to do this at home if you are very mechanically inclined. Cleanness is very important especial for the solenoids(they have opening of the diameter of human hair). You would also need to source the O rings that Fiat does not sell.

Also there are no guides on how to remove the unit from the gear box.
The only one I have found are for the M20 gearbox CFC300. this one describes how to remove most of the components expect for how to remove the unit from the gearbox.

I have also found the Fiat 500 Training manual. This manual describes how the CFC328 gear works and the various parts, but does not show how to dismantle the unit.

I also have also found the Ducato-Robotized-Gearbox-M40.

Another important item is that when installing the potentiometers.

(This is from the M20 Automated gearbox training manual.)


The gear engagement position sensor should be preloaded during assembly and so the following
steps should be taken

- Turn the engagement pin clockwise to
its stroke end.

Position the sensor complete with its
O-ring as shown on the figure so as to
engage the pin set previously in line
with the mark on the sensor.

Turn clockwise (preload) until the
locking holes are aligned and then
press the sensor back in place.



As for the the procedure to replace the oil you could do this once the gear box has been totally dismantled.
the oil is Liqui Moly 1127 Central Hydraulic System Oil 1 Litre. It is also a fully synthetic oil.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pump.jpg
Views:	142
Size:	64.7 KB
ID:	168833   Click image for larger version

Name:	CFC 328 unit.jpg
Views:	247
Size:	239.5 KB
ID:	168834  

Click image for larger version

Name:	preloaded.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	791.1 KB
ID:	168835   Click image for larger version

Name:	pointmeter.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	38.5 KB
ID:	168836  

Click image for larger version

Name:	resonance1966-img600x450-1450151067wobjk814514.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	36.5 KB
ID:	168837   Click image for larger version

Name:	fiat mech piston.jpg
Views:	186
Size:	277.5 KB
ID:	168838  

Click image for larger version

Name:	fiat mech bolt.jpg
Views:	139
Size:	246.4 KB
ID:	168839   Click image for larger version

Name:	selection.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	75.5 KB
ID:	168840  

Click image for larger version

Name:	soli.jpg
Views:	181
Size:	81.1 KB
ID:	168841   Click image for larger version

Name:	panda8.JPG
Views:	180
Size:	221.5 KB
ID:	168842  

Thanks varesecrazy thanked for this post
Likes nemek, Bergi, omega22 liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by tonico77; 15-06-2016 at 13:01.
tonico77 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-12-2016   #13
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Hi

Have replaced the pump all working OK one question on tick over the pump cuts in every 20 seconds no loss of fluid is this normal ?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JulianG is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 24-01-2017   #14
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Sweden 
Re: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

Tack!
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

nemek is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Comment
Currently Active Users Viewing This Guide: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Guide Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Guide Guide Starter Category Comments Last Post
(G) braking imbalance troubleshooting microphonehead Panda (Classic) 8 26-02-2014 19:11
(T) Alternator troubleshooting? Tex Gore Punto (Mk2/2b) 4 08-01-2010 00:38
(T) Once again clunking front end, troubleshooting inflightfeather Marea 4 14-06-2006 16:59
Electrical troubleshooting polecat Lets Talk FIAT 0 29-04-2006 23:16
wipers troubleshooting adi FIAT Boo Archives 0 06-05-2002 10:16