Northern Auto Tech - ECU and Blue & Me Repairs

General Glow plug relay location

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General Glow plug relay location

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Weltidave

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Hi I see that this was covered in a previous post in 2009, but received no replies. So giving it another go, with the difference being it is for my 2005 Rapido Motorhome, with 2.8 ODE. I have checked the relevant fuse, but no indication of pre-heat on panel. Suspect the relay but not able to locate its location. Any help gratefully accepted
Regards weltidave ??
 
I do not recognise the term "2.8 ODE". Given the age of the vehicle, it will most probably be a 2.8 JTD.

The 2.8 JTD does not use conventional glowplugs, instead it will probably be fitted with a flame starter. The flame starter is not used at ambient temperatures above about 0C. At temperatures above 0C all that you will see is a brief illumination of the warning coil symbol, during the system check of the ECU.

The flame starter does use a single glowplug to ignite the flame. The fuse for this is F02 50A, in the engine bay fusebox. The basic relay for this glowplug is located under the hood at the rear of the engine bay. The fuel valve is supplied via F11, secondary injection services, and controlled by relay T20, both of which devices are to be found in the engine bay fusebox.

For an interesting explanation follow the link to Motor-Roam, and scroll down to Flame Start Device. (The paragraph headed Injection Timing Advance does not apply to the JTD system.)

https://motor-roam.co.uk/ducato-cold-start-flame-start-system-explained
 
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Hi thanks for the information, when I purchased the vehicle that’s how it was described to me, as the dealer told me it was not a turbo diesel. I will investigate this further.
Many thanks weltidave
Hi further investigations have confirmed it is 2.8 JTD M15 The engine number is 4111793
My understanding is that this vehicle is not fitted with a flame starter, I can see the leads coming from 4 glow plugs. The problem is I cannot locate the relay, it appears to be in the section below the engine compartment fuse box.
Regards weltidave
 
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Hi Dave,

I think that your dealer may not have been fully conversant with the various engines fitted to Fiat Ducatos. A 2.8 D (Iveco 8140.63) engine was fitted to some models, but according to Wkipedia it was only fitted. until 2001.

The turbo version 2.8 idTD (Iveco 8140.43) was also fitted until 2001.

The replacement common rail 2,8 JTD (Iveco 8140.43S) was introduced in 2000, and fitted until 2006.

The most obvious recognition feature of the 2.8 JTD is the two 6cm OD air hoses running to and from the intercooler, behind the top of the radiator.

If your vehicle does not have these hoses, then perhaps your dealer was correct, but the vehicle must have been standing for years, prior to registration in 2005.

I am attaching a photo supplied by member @IceVovo of a 2.8 JTD engine, but the above hoses and the engine top cover have been removed for maintenance. The stub connection tubes on the intercooler, are visible at the lower LHS of the photo.
 

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  • Ducato 2.8 JTD Engine.jpg
    Ducato 2.8 JTD Engine.jpg
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Weltidave said:
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My understanding is that this vehicle is not fitted with a flame starter, I can see the leads coming from 4 glow plugs. The problem is I cannot locate the relay, it appears to be in the section below the engine compartment fuse box.
Regards weltidave
Click to expand...

Sorry Davie,
I missed the above addition to your post. I am not aware of a version of the 2.8 JTD that is fitted with conventional glowplugs. This would require a considerable changes in the design of the cylinder head.

Is it possible that you are mistaking the injector cables, for glowplug cables? If you refer to IceVovo's photo that I attached in my previous post, the four injector cables are about halfway down the photo. The injector cables may be further identified on the photo, by the fact that they pass through a rubber lined metal clamp, immediately to the right (on photo) of an engine lifting lug. The injector cables originate at the ECU which is mounted on the inside of the LH wing, near the air filter.

On my 2006 2.8 JTD, the glowplug and solenoid valve for the flame starter are mounted on the inlet manifold.

An alternative cold starting device is the heat flange, which is essentially a 12V electric heater mounted at the entry to the inlet manifold. It is my understanding that this device is only fitted to vehicles intended for Scandanavian? lattitudes.

The following table is a copied from an online version of the Fiat document "eLearn", but as it was cropped, I have completed the final line after referring to my CD version.


"Currently available versions are:
  • 2.8 JTD engine with Heat - flange with EGR;
  • 2.8 JTD with Heat - flange without EGR;
  • 2.8 JTD with thermal starter without EGR.
  • 2.8 JTD with thermal starter with EGR.
  • 2.8 JTD engine with Heat - flange with VGT, without EGR;
  • 2.8 JTD with thermal starter with VGT, without EGR."
The last two versions with VGT (Variable Geometry Turbo) are the "power" versions with higher output.

On my 2.8 JTD the space under the engine bay fusebox is occupied by the electrical connector for the engine block.

Please disconnect the battery negative, if investigating this area.


An alternative possibility is that you have a 2.3 JTD engine, which is the precursor of the current 2.3 Multijets. The 2.3 does use glowplugs, and sometimes causes woe to its owners, due difficulties encountered in removing faulty glowplugs.

Your V5C will show the engine capacity.


The 2.3 engine in its various guises is a 16 valve twin OHC engine, and should not match IceVovo's photo.
 
Hi double checked V5 engine is 2.8 version. Tried contacting Fiat Customer Service Centre but they were not able to assist, suggested booking into Service Centre. I think I will try and locate a Service Manual
Regards weltidave
 
Weltidave said:
Hi double checked V5 engine is 2.8 version. Tried contacting Fiat Customer Service Centre but they were not able to assist, suggested booking into Service Centre. I think I will try and locate a Service Manual
Regards weltidave
Click to expand...
How about posting pictures of your engine?
 
Hi Davie,

Please check the VIN number of your vehicle. This can be found in the V5C, or on the VIN plate which is normally fixed above the middle of the radiator. It will most probably have the form xxx244........., or possibly if a late conversion of an earlier base vehicle, xxx230......

The only 2.8 litre engine fitted to the x244 was the 2.8 JTD.

There is nothing in the manner of a Haynes manual available for the Ducato. The Fiat publication "eLearn" is available on a CD (eBay), or in the downloads section of this forum. eLearn for the x244 Ducato, is also available online via a Russian website, 4cardata, but some of the desciptive text is cropped short. One forum member described using eLearn as "like peeling the layers off an onion". eLearn does contain wiring diagrams, which I must warn you that they are not without errors. If using eLearn wiring diagrams, you will probably need a translation table for the Italian derived wire colour abbreviations.

http://4cardata.info/elearn/244/2/244000001/244000003
 

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  • Fiat Wiring Colour Codes.pdf
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Hi the VIN no is ZFA24400007616159 with Engine no 4111793. I have taken a couple of photos, and when I have learned how to post them, I will do so. Thanks for the info re the manual, I will try and chase one down
Regards weltidave
 


Finally sussed out how to upload photos, easy when you read through the help section “doh”
 
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Hi Davie,

Now we are making some progress. When I look at your photo, I could almost be looking into the engine bay of my 2006 2.8 JTD. The only immediately apparent difference is the colour of the antifreeze.

Look in the centre of the photos at the white label on the black engine cover. I expect it to carry the lettering "8140.43S". This denotes a 2.8 JTD.

When I look at the oblique photo above the oil filler cap, I think that I can just discern the cylindrical solenoid valve for the flame starter. The igniter (glowplug) for the flame starter will be just to the vehicle left (RH on picture) of the solenoid.

To select the correct eLearn diagram for the engine you need to know the type of fuel filter fitted. The fuel filter is mounted behind the air filter. Is it a black plastic housing with the marking "UFI", or a metal canister? It took me a long time to realise that I had an all black "green" filter.

Another point worth resolving is, whether or not your engine has EGR. Not having previously owned a vehicle with EGR, and as I expected my 2.8 JTD to be fitted, it again took me a long time to accept that it did not have EGR. The clinch point was the abscence of a mass air flow meter in the air filter outlet pipe. I also discovered the diagrams in eLearn, and the possible combinations, posted earlier in this thread.

If you follow the previously provided link to 4cardata, and follow the path, desciptions, engine, exhaust gas circuit, you will be able to scroll down to a drawing of the EGR set up. The drawing is as viewed from the rear of the engine, and shows a heat flange rather than the flame starter.
 

Hi sorry for the delay in replying, been away for a break. Photos taken of the area, still not certain of exactly what I’m looking at. I do remember when I first purchased the vehicle, I used to hear a relay clicking and the glow indicator registering on the display. After some time the relay and lamp were chattering, then stopped working altogether. Regards Dave
 
Hi,

Photos 1 & 2 appear to be identical. They show the electromagnetic fuel valve for the flame start device. Photo 3 is the label confirming that the engine is a Sofim 8140.43s (2.8 JTD). Photo 4 is shows the absolute pressure sensor on the inlet manifold.

I will attach a pdf extract from eLearn relating to the flame starter operation. In current ambient temperatures you should only see the test illumination of the indicator light.

However when new, my 2006 2.8 JTD did exhibit similar behaviour to that which you describe. Rectified under warranty by Fiat dealer, and ascribed to a "loose connection". I also recall reading of another owner having a similar problem and cure.
 

Attachments

  • Ducato Air Pressure Temperature Sensor.pdf
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  • Ducato Cold Starting Device.pdf
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Hi thanks very much for the pdf information, really useful. The problem seems to be that the pre-heat stage is not happening. Not getting any warning light indication. Even though ambient temperature is above 0 would expect to see light come on for a few seconds. Will have to re-check fuses, but not until this rain stops Regards Dave
 
Hi Weltidave

Just to add to Communicator's comments. The warning yellow "coil" symbol on the dashboard is controlled by the ECU. Often, all the dashboard warning lights are lit briefly when you first turn the key, as a check that they are functioning. Does yours come on like this ? Maybe another owner could confirm ?


It's possible that the coil lamp has failed, but given the age of your vehicle it could well be an LED which is much less likely to fail.

It's also possible that the wiring between ECU and Instrument panel is faulty, but this is rather unlikely. I don't even know if there is a dedicated wire or if the information is conveyed over the Canbus.


A third possibility is that the ECU is "clever" enough to recognise a fault somewhere in the Flame Start system (including its fuses and relays) and is therefore not illuminating the coil symbol. Again, this seems unlikely as errors are more often accompanied by a flashing coil symbol, at least in more recent vehicles.

So to summarise, a bit of a puzzle !

At least you now have the diagrams to check the relevant Fuses, Relays and Wiring. The single glowplug should measure something like an ohm to ground. Not sure about the fuel solenoid winding resistance, but if it's anything like a power relay expect to see a resistance of the order of 10 ohms.
 
Anthony489 said:
"Hi Weltidave
Just to add to Communicator's comments. The warning yellow "coil" symbol on the dashboard is controlled by the ECU. Often, all the dashboard warning lights are lit briefly when you first turn the key, as a check that they are functioning. Does yours come on like this ? Maybe another owner could confirm "


On my 2.8 JTD, the lamp illuminates for less than a second. This is easy to miss. eLearn says 0.5 seconds.


"It's possible that the coil lamp has failed, but given the age of your vehicle it could well be an LED which is much less likely to fail."

I think possibly LED, but not certain. eLearn specifically mentions LEDs for instrument, "control"?, panel illumination, but is not specific about indication/warning lights.

"It's also possible that the wiring between ECU and Instrument panel is faulty, but this is rather unlikely. I don't even know if there is a dedicated wire or if the information is conveyed over the Canbus."

It is not Canbus on an x244. eLearn diagram E5050-1 shows a wired connection from ECU pin B14, to the instrument panel connector B pin 4.

"A third possibility is that the ECU is "clever" enough to recognise a fault somewhere in the Flame Start system (including its fuses and relays) and is therefore not illuminating the coil symbol. Again, this seems unlikely as errors are more often accompanied by a flashing coil symbol, at least in more recent vehicles."

The ECU operates both the solenoid, and the glow plug via relays. It could conceivably check that the relays are connected, but further than that is doubtfull.

"So to summarise, a bit of a puzzle !"

YES, I agree.

"At least you now have the diagrams to check the relevant Fuses, Relays and Wiring. The single glowplug should measure something like an ohm to ground. Not sure about the fuel solenoid winding resistance, but if it's anything like a power relay expect to see a resistance of the order of 10 ohms."

A good estimate. I have measured 7.6 Ohms.

Dave,

Before investigating further, may I suggests confirming that you are not missing the brief test illumination of the coil indication light.
Click to expand...
 
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