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Old 25-08-2010   #1
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Cool Replacement Pads and Discs

Hi All,

Thinking of getting aftermarket replacement pads and discs for when they need replacing to give the car a slightly different and more aggressive look. The discs have a large lip on them atm but I have not yet checked the pads but the car is on around 24,000 now.

I wanted to check to see if these will be suitable, as all of the specs I have read for the discs say the follow for brake specs

Brakes
  • Fixed front calliper: Brembo M440, dual piston
  • Ventilated front brake disc 305 mm x 28 mm
  • Rear calliper with piston 54 mm
  • Rear brake disc 264 mm x 11 mm
http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pag...duct=555590575 - Front Disc

http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pag...duct=555597620 - Rear Disc yet its 264 x 10

Also after some decent Pads thinking that these green stuff should be good, but are there any other pads that are recommended

http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com/car/p...+%282007%2D%29

Thanks for any advice

Tom
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Old 26-08-2010   #2
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

For Pads also consider Ferrodo DS2500, Ive tried a few & always come back to these. Ive used them on a couple of quick cars & they are great on the track yet not too hard for road use & Ive never had a failure.

For discs try Godspeed, Not sure if Ian can do anything for the Punto but worth a call http://www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk/home.htm



Also consider upgrading the fluid, dot 5.1 has a higher boiling point & can be bought at most motoring stores, even halfrauds



For a good read go to
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml

The third one down re upgrades is a good source of knowledge

This section below makes particularly interesting reading, drilled discs are for show it appears, they still recomend grooves & from experience if you can have discs with curved grooves it greatly reduces pad rumble at very low speeds

DRILLED VS SLOTTED ROTORS
For many years most racing rotors were drilled. There were two reasons - the holes gave the "fireband" boundary layer of gasses and particulate matter someplace to go and the edges of the holes gave the pad a better "bite".
Unfortunately the drilled holes also reduced the thermal capacity of the discs and served as very effective "stress raisers" significantly decreasing disc life. Improvements in friction materials have pretty much made the drilled rotor a thing of the past in racing. Most racing rotors currently feature a series of tangential slots or channels that serve the same purpose without the attendant disadvantages.
Thanks TallTom thanked for this post
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Last edited by Stuart J; 26-08-2010 at 09:31.
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Old 01-09-2010   #3
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

A few other tips:

1) Don't go near big disc conversions, it just messes things up unless done properly

2) Most modern braking systems are actually more than adequate for even prolonged aggressive use, the tyres will give out long before the brakes overheat unless you are dragging the brakes

3) Don't use competition grade fluids and friction materials on the road, it is a recipe for disaster and expensive. Competition brake fluids offer much higher performance levels in terms of boiling point but have very poor resistance to water contamination which means you have to change the fluid every few weeks to keep it at its best. Most competition friction materials require warming up before they work which can mean a fatal lack of brakes the first time you use the pedal once they cool off (like on a motorway run) even on track days they can be a risky proposition as it can be hard to keep them warm enough

4) Don't waste money on big, multi-pot calipers as they don't offer anything that the regular caliper has except burning a hold in your wallet. Of course if you have money to burn then go ahead but don't expect the car to stop any better

The stoptech site is good but what they don't make clear enough (in my opinion) is that it is tyres that stop a car, not the brakes. The tyres limit how much braking force you can generate and it is very easy for the brakes to exceed those limits, the more energy your brakes can convert into heat for a given pedal pressure the easier it is to lock your wheels up and then you have no brakes (just tyre friction). ABS might stop the wheels locking but it won't make you stop any quicker (actually it extends stopping distance but allows you to steer around obstacles which is very hard to do without ABS).
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Old 01-09-2010   #4
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

Abarth already has 4pot fronts im pretty sure, they maybe 2 pots tho, varying information on them and I have not had my wheels off to check the back of the caliper but the front has 2 pistons there.

Correct that tyres will lose grip before u pads fade enough, but not over multiple hard braking.

ABS stops you quicker than if skidding if I remember correctly as well? If I did use a different brake pad I would check to see if the cold friction was good enough was just trying to get a feel.

I might upgrade the discs and pads when I need to, just so it looks a bit better.

Got AA rated road tyres, so not much better I can do apart from the semi slick road legal ones, but wouldnt fancy those in the wet!!

I was thinking doing a track day at some point when money allows, are there any tips? like book a weekday session for less people on the track etc?
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Old 02-09-2010   #5
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

I've put my A500 through its paces at Oulton Park and I can safely say that the brakes are supremely good but the original PzeroNero tyres could only take 4 or 5 laps before the rubber starts to boil.

Admittedly this is not normal usage and I was pushing pretty hard (the downside of years of racing is that you tend to forget what normal is when on a track).

At first I though it was the brakes boiling but further investigation showed it was the tyres themselves. I did manage to overheat the brakes just once on that day but it really took some doing unlike my experiences with the Megane and Clio sports that are just plain scary!

I've since switched to what I would call an intermediate tyre, they still work very well in the wet but in the dry they are supremely good and can take a bit more punishment. The Pirelli's have too many seperate small blocks in the tread that overheat easily despite the tyre construction and compound being more like a proper race tyre than most trackday tyres. I still have the PzeroN's on the back though - they have hardly any wear at all after 12k while the fronts wore out inside 10k
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Old 02-09-2010   #6
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

I got Toyo TR1 on the front of my Abarth, as you said still got Nero on the back it even has the bobble bits on the side of the tyre still!
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Old 03-09-2010   #7
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

Used to race on Toyo's until they switched the design - even by their own reckoning it isn't as good as the old tyre.

The new tyre cost me at least two places at my last (ever) race - it just melted after 10 minutes which is pretty hopeless in a 15 minute race. The old tyres lasted me 4 or 5 races, the new ones were trashed in that one race...

I put the new TR1s on my monster seicento and they just got worse and worse, swapped them for yoko s-drives in the end and there was simply no comparison, the yokos won hands down in the wet and dry. Part of the problem there though was the weight of the car and it doesn't suit the Toyos at all - the racer was the same. Everyone I know with heavier cars has found them to be OK.
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Old 03-09-2010   #8
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

Im thinking of doing my first track day later in the year, a collegue of mine has stated that I will do a set of tyres and possibly need to change the brake fluid.

Are there any other tips u can give me, I will be getting insurance. Do you need a crash helmet and are they supplied. I was thinking of going bedford aerodrome as a start as it is meant to be nice and easy although the long track might put extra pressure on the car?
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Old 03-09-2010   #9
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

A track day is whatever you make of it - basic maintenance is a must and that definitely includes brake fluid!

Helmets are provided at some sites or by some organisers but not always so check with them first.

The best advise is don't just go for it - give yourself time to work up speed and confidence. Most new drivers tend to go mad and it just ends up in tragedy, I've seen far too many cars written off at Castle Combe on the CCC track days of yore because some idiot thought he was the next Ayrton Senna and very nearly provided themselves correct in the nastiest way.

As long as you've enjoyed the drive then the day counts as a success. Keep the sessions fairly short and you should find you get the most out - try and do sessions over 10 or 15 minutes and it quickly gets tiring and somewhat less fulfilling.

Some of the best fun I've ever had on a track day was taking my (then) standard Sei sporting out around Brands Hatch and overtaking everything else out there because the other drivers were basically novices. When you consider that most of those cars had a huge power advantage and were much quicker in a straight line than I could ever hope to be on paper it was a real thrill. It took a lot of skill though to carry speed in the corners and set each of the other cars up for a pass safely because if I had to back off even for a moment it would take nearly a whole lap to set it up again. I went on to set an unofficial lap record for the day in a friend's Clio 172 which was the icing on the cake.

As for long circuits, they can make life a little tricky not because of extra strain on the car but more the driver. Remembering every twist and turn can get complicated. Places like Rockingham or Bedford Autodrome can be a real headache. I've never been to Bedford but I've raced three different layouts of Rockingham and was very grateful for getting plenty of practise in and that was with proper course notes to try and memorise in advance. The biggest problem with Bedford is the lack of visual markers and the fact you can see straight through to the next track (assuming it is split into two as usual).

I would suggest trying to find somewhere with a shorter, less complicated circuit to start with, even if it seems like a bit of a cop-out at first. You'll get more out of it, learn more about your car and your skills than one of the more complex circuits. Places like Llandow in south wales are brilliant for this - the circuit is short, perhaps a little narrow but has all the right ingredients and is enormous fun. It was good enough for fifth gear for some time (and that makes for some very interesting benchmarks courtesy of old Tiff) and having tested there I can vouch for how good it is.
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Last edited by jimbro1000; 03-09-2010 at 23:36.
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Old 03-09-2010   #10
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

Cheers for the advice, I was planning on attending a novice session at a track anyway, will see what is local.

I was only thinking bedford as it supposidly has some of the largest run off areas, so if I did do something stupid less chance I would be walking home.

I will see what I can find though, and will probably go during the week so that there are less people on the track.
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Old 05-09-2010   #11
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

On novice days there is usually someone on hand to offer basic tuition if needed. You'd be surprised how a few simple rules to get started with make a huge difference. That and there will be cones out marking the corner apex, entry and braking points. Build up your speed and keep the sessions short so you can mentally digest the progress and it all becomes quite simple
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Old 22-09-2010   #12
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

Dont get vented or grooved disks for the road, they do more harm than good. Flat disks are much more suitable.
I have been doing a lot of research into Road braking for my Stilo and by far the best option seems to be the following.

HEL Braided Hoses all round.

Carbotech AX6 pads all round. (if they dont stock yours then send them an old set and they will make some up)

ATE Super Blue brake fluid

Brembo OE replacement disks.
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Old 22-09-2010   #13
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Re: Replacement Pads and Discs

Pretty good advice but I will repeat again - be very wary of *any* racing fluid as they are not designed for longterm usage.

Most racing fluids have a poor wet boiling point - not including the aforementioned ATE super blue but worse still they degrade further (not just from getting wet) which can lead to unfortunate situations, especially when the brake fluid is cold.

A decent dot 5.1 is compatible with pretty much all calipers (racing fluids don't like magnesium as a rule of thumb) and has similar temperature characteristics but without the bad behaviour.

Keep in mind that racing brake fluids are meant for racing and that means changing the fluid with pretty much *every* race so it just isn't a consideration that it should be left in the system for months of usage.
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