Register Login
endrop - for all your online needs
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-07-2017   #1
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: In my car
Posts: 107
Thanks: 17
Trader Rating: 0
Greece 
Exclamation keyless entry - be warned

Be warned about keyless entry. I watched someone use a similar device to the one demonstrated by ADAC.

The device works by extending the range of the transmission between the key and the car. Thus, you could be at home, a mile away from your car and the device easily re-transmits the communication sequence of the key across walls, back to the car. Essentially, the car sees such a strong signal, as if the key was right next to the car.

I did this myself and drove the car without my key. I got a warning that the key was not in the car, but I drove the car away without a problem. I was told that I could just drive until it run out of petrol, but I didn't try that obviously.

I remember watching a video of someone stealing a BMW X6 in Russia, but that required a hack in the OBD port for the immobilizer. While this trick with the range extender is much cleaner and easier to do.

So, when you are at home, keep your keys... in a Faraday cage


The ADAC video is here for your convenience:
__________________
--
500X Lounge - 1.6 diesel - Venezia Blue
VeneziaBlue500x is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #2
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,363
Thanks: 88
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

I don't think it works a mile away - many metres perhaps. I have heard of cars being opened on peoples drives with the keys in the house, but as you said the immobiliser needs to be hacked via the software and ODP port to start the car.

When you say you replicated this, have you obtained one of these amplifiers? If not, did you start your car without the key being inside it? I know you can take the key from the car once the engine is running and it will keep going, but I thought the key had to be in the car to make it start.

At the moment I'm not too worried as it seems to be high end Range Rovers, BMWs etc being targeted, but the lack of security is disturbing. It's been demonstrated by Tesla that you can remotely drive one of their cars from your garage to your front door using a phone app. Imagine what the hackers could do with that!

Now, where are the keys to my Ford Anglia?......
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

TrevC is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #3
Ohhh my, yes.
 
Garree001's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,361
Thanks: 43
Trader Rating: 0
Garree001 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

It's not just high end cars being targeted. Quite a lot of keyless entry Fiestas were being stolen by an OBD hack. This way I'd not difficult. Takes 30 seconds tops.

Just enjoy your car. It's still unlikely it'll be stolen and if you're that worried, buy a steering wheel lock that covers the whole wheel. The bar ones can get sawn off.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Garree001 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #4
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,178
Thanks: 299
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

I reported this to Fiat Cust. Services Italy a few weeks ago asking that they upgrade their software/firmware to NOT allow the car to be driven in the absence of a key.

I gather some manufacturers provide a downgrade kit to put the vehicle back to more traditional key & chip operation.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #5
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,363
Thanks: 88
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Tried mine (Sept 15 car) just now. Got in the car, gave my wife the key and she stood against the driver's door. The car wouldn't start, gave the "key not in car" message. Tried again sitting in the drivers seat with the key in my hand, held out of the window. Same thing, so I dont think my car can be stolen without ODB hacking. Oh, and my wife's keyless Suzuki behaved the same
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

TrevC is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #6
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,363
Thanks: 88
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Also just tried to open the car with the key wrapped in an aluminium foil faraday cage. This disables the keyless entry. So, if concerned about having the car opened when it's parked outside your house, keep a lidded aluminium box in the hall for the key.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

TrevC is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #7
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,178
Thanks: 299
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Quote Originally Posted by TrevC View Post
Tried mine (Sept 15 car) just now. Got in the car, gave my wife the key and she stood against the driver's door. The car wouldn't start, gave the "key not in car" message. Tried again sitting in the drivers seat with the key in my hand, held out of the window. Same thing, so I dont think my car can be stolen without ODB hacking. Oh, and my wife's keyless Suzuki behaved the same
Not doubting your finding but there may be a sequence of events involved here.

Normally you have the key. Nothing happens UNTIL you put you hand in the door handle to initiate the unlock. The system then accepts the key as being present or not. These remote link exploits use in effect a "universal" transponder that uses the signature of the remote key so when the crook gets in the car his universal transponder is registered as "PRESENT". Can now start the engine and drive off.

Try this. Find at what distance your key will not work. Wrap a piece of wire around the fob and put the other end through the door handle. Not put you hand in the handle. Does the car unlock? Open door and take the wire end into the vehicle. Now hit the start button.

For the car to start the key has to be present. These guys in effect have the key.

Your wife standing outside the car with the key is a key not present so no the car will not start.
Likes typecastboy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,178
Thanks: 299
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Quote Originally Posted by TrevC View Post
Also just tried to open the car with the key wrapped in an aluminium foil faraday cage. This disables the keyless entry. So, if concerned about having the car opened when it's parked outside your house, keep a lidded aluminium box in the hall for the key.
Absolutely.

What I've been looking for is a lovely shielded leather/similar key fob sleeve that does the same thing, like credit/debit card shields.

Such a sleeve shield would either 100% kill off the keyless RF or significantly reduce it so that one has to be almost in contact with the car. That would thwart 99%+ attempted remote hacks.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 05-07-2017   #9
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,363
Thanks: 88
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
I'd like to know how these systems work, rather than have to guess. As thieves that want to actually steal the car seem to have to connect to the odb port,it suggests a different security protocol is used to start the car to that used to gain entry. When the start button is pushed, the car could request a different code from the key to that provided by the locking system. Only speculating here - are there any vehicle security specialists out there that know about these things?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

TrevC is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 06-07-2017   #10
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Romford
Posts: 1,141
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Numptey has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

I deliberately didn't get one for just this reason. I can use a key and a remote without to much inconvenience lol
__________________
2016 500x Cross
Numptey is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 06-07-2017   #11
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 22,992
Thanks: 810
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Quote Originally Posted by Numptey View Post
I deliberately didn't get one for just this reason. I can use a key and a remote without to much inconvenience lol
A younger neighbour has a German car so nice even I wouldn't mind having..

these apparently are so often stolen, keyless and OBD hacked,
that he's resorted to "krookloks" - progress eh.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 07-07-2017   #12
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Romford
Posts: 1,141
Thanks: 11
Trader Rating: 0
Numptey has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Technology seems to make us less safe and does nothing to lessen crime. Cars do break down less mind but are now harder to fix. Its all a big money making scheme which is why Ive just bought another Seicento as nobody wants to steal it or the 2 Rovers I had before it lol
Likes Ulpian, varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
2016 500x Cross
Numptey is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 07-07-2017   #13
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,363
Thanks: 88
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Not quite true if the figure I read for 2016 is correct - car crime has fallen by 80% since 1993.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...-a-20-year-low
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

TrevC is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-07-2017   #14
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,178
Thanks: 299
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

Quote Originally Posted by TrevC View Post
I'd like to know how these systems work, rather than have to guess. As thieves that want to actually steal the car seem to have to connect to the odb port,it suggests a different security protocol is used to start the car to that used to gain entry. When the start button is pushed, the car could request a different code from the key to that provided by the locking system. Only speculating here - are there any vehicle security specialists out there that know about these things?
If you think about it would not matter if the a different code was used for every door and to start the car. The remote hack is a bi-directional bridge between the car and the remote key fob. All the thief has to do is enter the car with the remote hack unit and the key will be in the car and the car will start.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 08-07-2017   #15
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southampton, Hampshire
Posts: 4,178
Thanks: 299
Trader Rating: 0
s130 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: keyless entry - be warned

I'm hunting for an internet ad / video I saw of a bit of extra security kit which you train to record personal vehicle button sequences to allow the car to start.

e.g. steering wheel radio volume up 2 times and down 2 times, left indicator on / off before start is allowed.

Personally I would prefer something less visible like clutch pedal to floor & hold, throttle to floor and hold, release clutch, release throttle.

We could get really technical / gadget as well. e.g. paired mobile phone must be present etc.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

s130 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(G) after market keyless entry Sinneduk Stilo 3 08-07-2019 09:23
(G) Remote Keyless Entry Dustyjoe Panda (2012+) 0 25-11-2014 02:52
keyless entry icemonkey666 Lets Talk FIAT 8 17-03-2013 10:50
(T) Remote Keyless entry Thrisey Bravo / Brava 2 14-10-2008 15:07
(G) Keyless entry and key dgo Punto (Mk2/2b) 2 19-06-2007 23:08