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Old 21-06-2017   #46
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Ouch, that's pretty fast already. Truly lucky, ESP probably helped too...

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
Well, if this one is written off (will hopefully know very soon), a new TwinAir Lounge will be ordered to replace it. A lovely car I think and my wife just plain adores it.
The only right replacement for a 500 is another 500 In case you end up with a new TwinAir and intend to kit it like the current one, just keep in mind that a EURO6 car may throw some error codes if the engine is warmed up with a heater as powerful as these Webasto units, too big of a difference between intake air temp and coolant temp etc.
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Old 21-06-2017   #47
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by BloodyHematite View Post
In case you end up with a new TwinAir and intend to kit it like the current one, just keep in mind that a EURO6 car may throw some error codes if the engine is warmed up with a heater as powerful as these Webasto units, too big of a difference between intake air temp and coolant temp etc.
That is a very good point and one that I am actually contemplating. Even our current 500 did occasionally show some weird behaviour on cold mornings after having been warmed up with the Webasto. Like in scenarios where it was -20C outside and the engine and interior were at +10C. The car always starts normally, but feels short on power. Shut it down and start it up again and all was back to normal. No error codes at any time. But this only occurred occasionally and only when the temperature difference between outside and the warmed up car was large. I took this to be on account of the Webasto and learned to manage the temp difference in way as to not let it get too big. But if the later engines are even more sensitive, then I might actually consider dropping the Webasto from the 500 (especially since the Q2 has one).
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Old 21-06-2017   #48
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
Condolences.

So glad you are unhurt. Everything else can be replaced.

Your little car has done its job well. Personally I wouldn't want it repaired after that amount of damage.
Cheers. And I agree. I definitely would prefer to have the car written off. But it is not up to me. Let's see what the verdict is from the insurance company (it will be entirely dependent on the cost estimate from the bodyshop - one that I selected and know to be both official Fiat one as well as one with a good reputation).
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Old 22-06-2017   #49
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
That is a very good point and one that I am actually contemplating. Even our current 500 did occasionally show some weird behaviour on cold mornings after having been warmed up with the Webasto. Like in scenarios where it was -20C outside and the engine and interior were at +10C. The car always starts normally, but feels short on power. Shut it down and start it up again and all was back to normal. No error codes at any time. But this only occurred occasionally and only when the temperature difference between outside and the warmed up car was large. I took this to be on account of the Webasto and learned to manage the temp difference in way as to not let it get too big. But if the later engines are even more sensitive, then I might actually consider dropping the Webasto from the 500 (especially since the Q2 has one).
Interesting that you'd have no codes but still a noticeably difference in power.
I've read that in EURO6 cars the intake air temp and coolant temp are compared only when the car has been sitting for more than 7 hours. Some guy on a finnish car forum said that he heard of a case where the Webasto startup was set up to turn on ignition power for 5 seconds or so, resetting the 7 hour timer, and thus causing no issues when the warmed-up car is started later.

I'm now in the same boat, as my 595 is EURO6, and these apparently throw an error code when warmed up. Big problem is that there just aren't many who have fitted Webastos in cars this small AND are writing about it on forums, so there's little information to work with. According to a member on the german Abarth forum however, he had his EURO6 595 occasionally throw codes when warmed up with a Webasto, but the issue vanished completely after he fitted a "new, stronger battery".

Really annoying issues, these. My TwinAir is EURO5 and has never had any issues when warmed up, even though the coolant temp gauge claims it's nearly at normal operating temperature when started. Why'd they have to mess things up with EURO6?

Since you have the Q2, maybe I wouldn't bother with the Webasto. You can just take that if you know you're going to be leaving the car parked outside. However, be advised that the electric engine heater for the TwinAir is completely useless; it's one of those "hose heaters" without any coolant recirculation. I have the Defa one on my car, and it made no noticeable difference whatsoever when starting the car after more than 3 hours of heating. I've since had it disconnected so that it doesn't waste electricity while I'm using the battery charger...
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Old 29-06-2017   #50
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

The insurance company confirmed that the car will be written off. The good thing is that due to the car being less than 3 years or and having covered less than 60k kilometers, insurance will cover the purchase of a new equivalent car with same equipment without any cost to us. The only thing unclear is if this also applies to the Webasto, but will have that clarified soon as well...
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Old 01-07-2017   #51
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
The insurance company confirmed that the car will be written off. The good thing is that due to the car being less than 3 years or and having covered less than 60k kilometers, insurance will cover the purchase of a new equivalent car with same equipment without any cost to us. The only thing unclear is if this also applies to the Webasto, but will have that clarified soon as well...
I guess that was to be expected. Think you'll go for 85hp or 105hp TA?
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Old 02-07-2017   #52
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
A noob signing in from Finland. About to pull the trigger on a 500 for the wife.

Up here in Finland the available engine range for the 500 is limited to the 69hp 1.2 and the 80hp 0.9 TwinAir. The problem is that there are no opportunities to drive the TwinAir before purchase. I am also a bit puzzled about the TwinAir being 80hp instead of the 85hp it seems to have in other markets. The dealer is saying that this is due it being the Eco version of the TwinAir and that means it has 80hp and emissions of only 88 grams vs the 85hp and emissions at 93 grams. The torque figures are identical. They also confirm that it is a petrol engine and not the bi-fuel version that is available in some markets.

I am not concerned about the 5hp less output as even the 1.2 is ok in town, but a little more oomph would be nice (and both TwinAir versions deliver that over the 1.2). The TwinAir is also cheaper to insure. So, to make the long story short, I guess I am just wondering if the price difference is not an issue, is there any reason for not going for the TwinAir?

As for the rest of the car, it would be Lounge spec car with Xenons, Interscope hifi and auto-dimming mirror and 16" 10-double spoke wheels (the same as the ones that come standard with the Cult version). The wife does not like leather, so the fabric interior with Ivory ambience would be the one. And the exterior would be Bossanova white (or Gelato white as its called here). Anything critical that I have missed or something else I should consider?
Due to different emission rules in so many countries, there are a lot of different TwinAir engines.
In the Netherlands it starts back in the day with 85 hp TwinAir turbo, later on a "NON" turbo TwinAir came available with 65 hp, and a bigger Turbo TA 105 hp version.
The emission rules got sharper and the NON turbo went back to 60 hp and the turbo went back to 80 hp, and the bigger turbo to 100 hp. (all Euro-5 engines)
Then Fiat start with Euro-6 engines, de NON turbo stay the same, but the Turbo's changed.
Now the new 85 hp TwinAir Turbo got exactly the same cylinder head as the TA 105 hp version but with a smaller turbo and restricted to the same 80 hp as before.
With the new emission rules it was no longer necessary to limit the 105 hp version because it got one class higher anyway because it could no meet the new low rules.
So now a days we have non turbo 60, turbo 80 and bigger turbo 105 available.
And stil the 1.2 FIRE 69 hp.
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Old 02-07-2017   #53
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by BloodyHematite View Post
I guess that was to be expected. Think you'll go for 85hp or 105hp TA?
It is very likely to be the 85hp TA. The 105hp TA is not for sale in Finland and I do not think I will do a private import. But at least the current TA has 85hp instead of 80hp
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Old 02-07-2017   #54
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by The Pretender View Post
Due to different emission rules in so many countries, there are a lot of different TwinAir engines.
In the Netherlands it starts back in the day with 85 hp TwinAir turbo, later on a "NON" turbo TwinAir came available with 65 hp, and a bigger Turbo TA 105 hp version.
The emission rules got sharper and the NON turbo went back to 60 hp and the turbo went back to 80 hp, and the bigger turbo to 100 hp. (all Euro-5 engines)
Then Fiat start with Euro-6 engines, de NON turbo stay the same, but the Turbo's changed.
Now the new 85 hp TwinAir Turbo got exactly the same cylinder head as the TA 105 hp version but with a smaller turbo and restricted to the same 80 hp as before.
With the new emission rules it was no longer necessary to limit the 105 hp version because it got one class higher anyway because it could no meet the new low rules.
So now a days we have non turbo 60, turbo 80 and bigger turbo 105 available.
And stil the 1.2 FIRE 69 hp.
In Finland the choice is between the Twin Air (Euro-6 and 85hp) or the 1.2 (69hp). Between these two the choice is a no brainer for me in favour of the Twin Air - more character and slightly more power. I think even insurance and road tax are slightly lower for the Twin Air.
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Old 02-07-2017   #55
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
It is very likely to be the 85hp TA. The 105hp TA is not for sale in Finland and I do not think I will do a private import. But at least the current TA has 85hp instead of 80hp

Really? Surprising, but I suppose they deemed there's no market for those, just like how they originally didn't sell the TwinAir in Finland at all...
Not too big of an issue I guess, as the 85 and 105 both have the same amount of torque (145Nm), so if the 20hp difference mostly comes into play above 3500rpm or so, there's probably little difference in normal driving.

I have yet to own a car that hasn't been privately imported
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