Panda (Classic) Snatch Panda

[Dragon Man]

does that mean what i think its gonna mean...? 16 valves... 4x4... ?

 

[andyholli]

does that mean what i think its gonna mean...? 16 valves... 4x4... ?

It does mean exactly that John - I went looking at torque curves to compare and from what I can see, this is the lump that produces the highest at all revs. (Naturally aspirated, cable throttle, etc.)


And anyway, gearbox bearings are cheap..

 

[andyholli]

Comparing torque and power curves for a Punto 85 16v with Panda 999cc 4x4, no wonder this conversion makes them fly:
Because power and torque don't tail off as early in the rev range, naturally I hold the Punto in each gear a bit longer while accelerating. Giving the impression that the 16v engine is a bit of a 'peaky screamer'.


But torque from the 85 16v starts at more than double (4x4 24Nm 85 - 52Nm @ 1000), is just behind double when the 4x4 peaks (4x4 58Nm 85 - 106Nm @ 3000) and continues on up to 113Nm at 4500.
So even if I were to change gear at the same revs and ignore the higher end of the range, the difference in acceleration would still be substantial..


Another way of looking at the comparison is the area under each curve, again, certainly substantially different but my maths aren't up to calculating if it's double.


And since the Panda weighs 100kg less than the Punto (ignoring any attached caravans) 0-100 in under 10secs looks easily possible (Factory claims are Punto 10.9 and Panda 17.5).


Can't wait!

 

[Bartpanda]

10sec is very optimistic I have 1.2 8v with almost the same power/torque figures up to 3800-4000 rpm, and with 4x4 gearbox with 5.45:1 diff and wider/bigger 165/65-14 tyres "pedal to the metal" start is a slow one with some smoke unfortunatelly because the ratio is so close that it really spins tyres , beside that ,accelerating 0-60 in punto 85 does not require 5 gear changes with always wobly and far from precise stick before reaching 60mph, and that takes some time also. Rough calculations done with stopwatch for my 1.2 8v trekking are arround high13/low14 seconds to 62 mph. Still finger crossed for your 10s.

PS those values are on LPG fuel. maby on petrol it would be low 13 s

 

[Palio]

Comparing torque and power curves for a Punto 85 16v with Panda 999cc 4x4, no wonder this conversion makes them fly:
Because power and torque don't tail off as early in the rev range, naturally I hold the Punto in each gear a bit longer while accelerating. Giving the impression that the 16v engine is a bit of a 'peaky screamer'.


But torque from the 85 16v starts at more than double (4x4 24Nm 85 - 52Nm @ 1000), is just behind double when the 4x4 peaks (4x4 58Nm 85 - 106Nm @ 3000) and continues on up to 113Nm at 4500.
So even if I were to change gear at the same revs and ignore the higher end of the range, the difference in acceleration would still be substantial..


Another way of looking at the comparison is the area under each curve, again, certainly substantially different but my maths aren't up to calculating if it's double.


And since the Panda weighs 100kg less than the Punto (ignoring any attached caravans) 0-100 in under 10secs looks easily possible (Factory claims are Punto 10.9 and Panda 17.5).


Can't wait!

Not sure about 0-60 in Panto, but feels "adequate" to quote Rolls Royce. Vernon did try timing 40-80 in 3rd and thought it was 9 seconds - it certainly feels and sounds quick. I'd advise you not to try that in 4wd though.....

 

[andyholli]

Thinking about going to 14s...



Because:

1. Every centimetre of under carriage clearance adds options when it gets rough.
2. Raising the gearing a bit, in anticipation of the engine swap seems sensible.
3. Tyre choices and speed ratings get much wider at these sizes.
4. These rims came free with the engine - the 175 65s shown just clear everywhere but I'm inclined to go narrower and taller - 165 70s maybe.
5. They open up the possibility of Punto calipers, discs, hubs - has anyone done this?

What do you think?

 

[dragonwagon]

And a holed fuel filler pipe........

 

[Dragon Man]

tough call. i want to stick some big wheels on fallout. one of the rear arches has already been cut out (it was rusty.. like it matters what it looks like)

i have this idea in my head that when i make this external roll cage, i can have tyres that stick out as far as the roll cage.
my plan is to just use bigger steel rims with some cheap wheel spacers and longer wheel bolts to stop it rubbing on the filler pipe.

an option for you is to get those stick on rubber wheel arch extenders that you see other 4x4s use.
i may end up still using them if the roll cage is not a "valid" wheel arch.

think i'll start working on the roll cage soon.. its only going to be made from light steel tube as its more for show than anything.. and it was free.

 

[onemanmade]

Will you protect the filler pipe?

 

[Bartpanda]

I drive every day with 165/65-14 on 5.5x14 et 45 rims, no tyre/filler pipe rub on both 4x2 or 4x4 mode ,even with great wheel travel while offroading. I have 10mm spacers all arround.With 175/65-14 on 5.5x14 also no rub. With 165/80-14{ 62cm dia. wheel ! 145/80-13 is 56cm} there was also no rub, well in fact it rubbed everywhere{ front and rear bumper, rear plastic wheel arches} but not the filler pipe

 

[andyholli]

Picked up a lovely orange '99 Punto 85SX today.


- 87K, I'm it's second owner, red key, all the original books, etc. but where the rear floors should be, only fresh air. Shame.
With the benefit of hindsight I ought to have lied when the lady selling, asked me what I was going to do with her car.
Sorry Debbie.


Still, at least the donkey will live on and with a bit of luck, visit Italy again this year.

I drive every day with 165/65-14 on 5.5x14 et 45 rims, no tyre/filler pipe rub on both 4x2 or 4x4 mode ,even with great wheel travel while offroading. I have 10mm spacers all arround.With 175/65-14 on 5.5x14 also no rub. With 165/80-14{ 62cm dia. wheel ! 145/80-13 is 56cm} there was also no rub, well in fact it rubbed everywhere{ front and rear bumper, rear plastic wheel arches} but not the filler pipe

- That fits with what I can see, thanks Bartpanda. I've got all four arch liners in place and the nearest the tyres get to contact anywhere is the rear inside walls where the liners bulge out to cover the chassis rail seams.
The filler pipe is a long way away now and because I need to switch to an injection tank and matching pipe, I hope even more clearance is possible later.


The offset looks good and not needing spacers means the rears don't foul the arches in compression either.


Was this meant to be..?

 

[Bartpanda]

I use 10mm spacers because I have ritmo/regata/delta/prisma rims 5.5x14 with offset 45, you have punto wheels so probably 5x14 offset arround 35? better suited to panda

 

[andyholli]

I use 10mm spacers because I have ritmo/regata/delta/prisma rims 5.5x14 with offset 45, you have punto wheels so probably 5x14 offset arround 35? better suited to panda

You're right again - the Punto rims are 5.5 x 14 ET35.


I've driven it around for a few days now and notice the differences more subtly. - I'd like to think I can feel the increase in unsprung weight (probably delusional) but improved high frequency bump absorption compensates.
While the longer gearing effect has taken some of the sparkle from it's character, hopefully the engine swap will return that in spades.
Steering is heavier at really low manoeuvring speed but that's just bad driving technique and so far no tyre contact issues at any time, anywhere.


All in all I'm surprised that this feels like an improvement when I was expecting it to be a compromise.


Result.

 

[andyholli]

Right let the fun begin - with an ear worm courtesy of The Spice Girls song "When Two Become One" in my head, this morning I moved the one on the left into the garage to begin stripping it of all useful bits.




..If anyone wants any bits of orange Punto beyond the engine, it's wiring, front seats and wheels, then let me know.

 

[andyholli]

Advice please from engine swappers - the input shaft on the 4x4 gearbox is smaller diameter then the one on the Punto, so the options appear to be;
1. swap the friction plate and pressure plate for the 4x4 set.
2. .. and also the 4x4 flywheel. (Could be lighter?)
3. Try to build a hybrid Punto/4x4 box. (Please, no!)

Anyone any thoughts please?

 

[Bartpanda]

As far as I know punto1.2 16v has 190mm 20 spilnes clutch plate, punto 1.2 8v has 180mm 20 splines{also 1.1} I have 180mm 20 splines punto 1200 8v clutch in my 1200 trekkng combined with panda 1.0 4x4 box. 1.0 4x4 clutch is 170mm 20 splines,

 

[Dragon Man]

i never checked this with fallout!

i am using the punto 75 clutch and pressure plate with the 4x4 gearbox.. the clutch works fine..
just my luck that its the wrong size!

maybe its just a thing with 16v engines?

 

[VmanC]

Hi Andy,
Just caught up on this thread.

Can't remember what I did for Panto's clutch but it works, and definitely didn't involve a hybrid gearbox! In Bucket I used the Punto 60 clutch and that mated up with the gearbox fine.

 

[andyholli]

Lump out and prepped with new cambelt, water pump, cut off p.a.s. pulley section. I decided to invest in £20's worth of cam belt installation tools and happy I did, since the previous garage had not got the previous one quite right. - If anyone wishes to borrow them in future, just ask.
Clutch turned out to be no problem (a slip of the verniers to blame for the earlier wobble). AndyPanda4x4 brought a replacement bonnet, grill and fan today - thanks mate, so I'm planning to paint those at the same time as the Punto rims..


Only a few weeks to go..

 

[andyholli]

FIRE in the hole!
So far so good, ish. Great advice in the forum posts from people who've been here before. I salute you all.
Trickiest challenge has been stripping out and straightening the Punto's fuel lines to make them fit the Panda. Still not quite there but well on the way.
Wheels got a first coat of paint today - but that seemed to coincide with the appearance of large numbers of flying insects interested in Punto steelies. Booo.