Panda (Classic) John Dragon Man's 4x4 Sisley

[blu73]

tbh John i would agree with everything said above.. I really think the easiest way to make Talon EFI and be reliable starter and runner (as reliable as any old fiat lol) would be to just whip the head off and fit one off a cinq sporting/sei spi/punto mk1 55 or 60 along with the manifolds, TB etc, and use the full engine loom and ecu etc. Most of which could be sourced for peanuts. All you would need on top really is a decent fuel pump and some fuel line.

I would say as well, and i hate to take a 'i told you so' tone, but cheap chinese fuel pump was never a good idea, you need a good quality pump!!

I do have a Punto head, inlet, throttle body and exhaust manifold all in decent condition i could practically give you if you wanted - i might even be able to drop them off around new year time for a petrol money donation as intending to go to York to see some friends around new year. Drop me a PM or facebook message if you are interested

 

[Dragon Man]

this has not beat me just yet.

i suspect theres something in the fuel pump causing the locking up. i must admit though i wish i could find one on a car in our scrap yard. in-line pumps just do not exist on cars now days

as far as the conversion to fuel injection goes it was easy as hell. this system came from off another 999cc FIRE engine. all you need to do is give the ECU a live, 2 ignition lives and the input from the coil so it can read RPM.
then swap the bits over on the engine.

the hard bit was welding a threaded hole in the exhaust down pipe to fit the lambda sensor. (only because it has the sump guard and bull bar in the way)

the swirl pot design is just as reliable as fiats own design. well fallouts is. that cant really fail in any way. it uses fiats original pump. it does however use the cheap chineese solenoid pump to lift fuel from the main tank to the swirl pot.

with talon i use the original cam driven fuel pump. if i had the system that fallout has things i think would be much different however i just dont have the space for it under talons bonnet.

on fallout the large dog food tin swirl pot with internal fuel pump lives where the coil is bolted to the fire wall because the Magneti Marelli ECU on fallout takes care of both the fuelling and the spark ignition system. so it does not need a coil, or distributor. (wish i could get this on talon but the only way i can is an engine swap)

now sadly because talon is.. hybrid or "between phases" the ecu ONLY controls the fuelling system NOT the spark system. this is why i went with this injection system.
it does not need half of the engine sensors that the other ECU needs.

the down side to that is that this Bosch ECU has to do some guess work should anything go wrong which it has.

unlike the Magneti Marelli Ecu most mid to late 90s fiats have this Bosch ECU does not have a MAP sensor. this sensor detects how much vacuum is in the manifold. if you have a manifold leak then using this sensor, the ECU can compensate the fuel/air mixture and keep the engine running good. (at the same time throwing an engine management light telling you that the manifold absolute pressure sensor is reading a too low vacuum in the manifold when it should be a high vacuum.)

oh and this bosch ECU has no waning light of any kind.. no injector light or engine management light. there is no wire that comes out of the ECU to drive one
it uses the standard 3 pin diagnostic plug that Magneti Marelli ecus seem to love.


i think what i am going to do is give that throttle body a good stripping down.. if crap has gotten into the pump, gotten past the pump then made its way into the throttle body and injector this is what could be causing the issues.

like i said it was not running a filter for a short while which is what could have been causing the problems.

ill also try cleaning the pump out too.. reverse pole it and try to clear things out that way.

at the end of the day you dont know what the uno i got all of this fuel injection system from was scrapped for in the first place.

like i said before, if i could get punto 60 or 75 engine with under 50k miles on it, i would not hesitate to swap it over.

 

[Bartpanda]

One question John, why do you use 3 bar fuel pump with all that fancy swirlpots and other stuff? fiat spi needs 1.1 bar 120l/h pump, nothng more than that. Maby that is why this downgrade plays tricks to you.I am sorry, but in my opinion spi is in every aspect a downgrade not upgrade, comparing to simple carb and mechanical fuel pump, less power more "things" to fail, carbed 1.0 fire with carb in good nick starts right away in minus 25, I had that setup in 127mk1 for years.

 

[onemanmade]

I get where you are coming from with this John, and after sleeping on it you seem to be back at it with a vengeance

Things get on top of me with the Sisley sometimes (mostly cos I'm nowhere near the skill level you are) and I like a vent sometimes, but sleeping on it always makes me feel better.

Were here when you need us to vent to man, that's what this forum is about, helping in all its many forms.

 

[pandamaniac]

Oh I feel like singing, 'the rythm of life is a powerful thing'

Back at it Cameron, cor blimey.... he went to put the kettle on to combat his woes and the result is a 50 line thesis.

Welcome back John.....it didn't take long:slayer:
Dave

 

[Dragon Man]

well i am using the larger fuel pump because it was the cheapest one i could find that was in line. small in line fuel pumps cost a damn fortune.

i have to make every penny go a long long way. in fact i class my self as a bit of a master at doing so.. never buying new, always second hand.. finding parts from scrap yards for a fraction of the cost of a new or even a vehicle beaker prices. hell even to the point where i am making my own parts from scratch out of old tin cans.

at the moment if i do need to get anything i wont be able to as i have not got the funds to.
my way is a make do with what you have got. if something brakes. fix it. if it says it is not user serviceable. i make sure i know enough about it so i can make it serviceable.
if i had a lathe and machining table i could practically make any tool i would need.

i dono.. i think it is a thing with me.. i like to pay nothing but make something really good by upgrading it over and over.. forcing things live longer than they really should.
its about the only way i make money by buying broken things, fixing them and making them so they wont fail again, then selling them on.

a prime example is my netbook (a mini laptop i take everywhere). theres no case left on it as its all been cracked and fallen off, gaffa tape makes up most of its weight. it has a home made welded metal frame and door hinges to make the screen still open and close, a home made battery pack that lasts 22 and a half constant hours at max performance, a screen from off another laptop that is slightly bigger than the base and to top it all off a fan from an old dell laptop that is now missing a few blades.
looks like techno hell but still works great. and its faster than any other computer i have.

if i had the cash i would have just replaced it, but i never have. so it just keeps getting umm.. repaired.. kinda. i mean it keeps being made to work when it really should have been thrown away a long time ago.

i dont really want talon to go that bad haha but i'll do what ever i can in the most cheapest freest way possible as it is all i can do.

cant wait till it gets to spring as that is normally when i make enough cash to last all year.
i have quite a lot of mowers, chain saws, hedge trimmers and other petrol stuff all brought for scrap value that with super light tinkering all work flawlessly also a few aircon systems that sell for a very good price... damn you cold weather no one buys this stuff this time of year

ahh man. so off topic.

sorry about this guys.. i need to take this away from the forum as it should not be on here. just trying to show you guys.

try to get back to talking about talon.

i still need time to think about what i am doing.

the way i see it i can..

go back to carb.
find a new/fix fuel pump
give the throttle body a good stripping down and clean it up. (it has already got 65k on it so it may just need cleaning)

the thing i would like to do is an engine swap to a "more" modern (before they went stupid with electronics) punto mk1 engine. now i practically know everything about the mk1 punto ECU, and the way it is wired in i am pretty sure it would only be a 2 day job to get it all in and running.
well i am not sure how it goes with the V5... i mean as soon as it would be converted over and running i would send off the v5 and have it marked up as whatever size the new engine would be. not sure if you need the V5 back before you can insure it as the new engine size or if as soon as it is converted you can just ring up the insurance and say "hey guys fitted a new engine, its slightly bigger than the original. how much extra cash do you need".

not sure what else i could do..

hehe i am getting withdrawal symptoms from not visiting the local scrap yards..

im too afraid to use my brothers or mums car if i get it oily.. :/ talons fake leather seat covers are so easy to clean..
not only that but if i drive a modern car.. i may get "so this is what i am missing out on"ness. and i really dont want to catch that.

 

[kolza]

John, if you want to run Talon for peanuts - convert it to LPG.
Components should not cost more than £150 (second hand will be cheaper), no labour cost as you can do it for sure.
£96 to get it tested/certified and of you go for cheap motoring.
Gas tank can be removable if boot/van option will be required.
Bartpanda is your man for setup details.

 

[Dragon Man]

nothing more than i want to do is that. i am not sure on rules and regs though. i heard in the UK it can be a right pain to get it done correct by yourself. you need all the pipes to be ducted and braided.. all electronics need to be fire proof.. you can only use certain kinds of tanks.. you are limited as to where you are allowed to put the tank.
i would have the tank just behind the rear axle under the boot floor. theres quite a bit of room up there.

then because you fitted it, only certain insureres will insure you.. not sure what you have to do about tax

they have made it quite a pain in the ass to do because you are getting something cheaper.


we had a Chrysler grand voyager gas converted. it was very cheap back then something like 30p a litre.

 

[kolza]

My prevois daily Primera P11estate been converted in Poland, just went for recheck at autorised side. In few weeks my current subaru legacy gtb twin turbo will be converted in Poland as well. No probs with insurance as it will be certfied by UK base fitter, road tax reduced by £10.

 

[AndyRKett]

If you can get me one of those webasto diesel coolant heaters in good running condition with fuel pump, I'll come collect it off you and pay cash (price dependent) that could help get tallon going properly.

One line of investigation you could pursue is mk1 or mk2 puntos that have been defeated by tin worm pop up all the time on gumtree for £100-150, strip the parts you need and weigh in the shell you could get everything you need in one easy hit

 

[Dragon Man]

that would be an ideal thing to do. my mum has told me that i cant buy a car for parts though haha. im still suffering with what happened with bex.

 

[blu73]

don't ask, don't tell, just buy and stick on the drive and start dismantling when she is out

 

[scout]

It's easier to ask for forgiveness after the event than to ask permission before.

 

[AndyRKett]

that would be an ideal thing to do. my mum has told me that i cant buy a car for parts though haha. im still suffering with what happened with bex.

Claim you need it to be grown up and sensible and you're going to buy a newer more reliable car...... Then rip it to bits and transfer it all to tallon...

 

[Dragon Man]

you guys are bad. stop giving me bad ideas or i will get a mod to teach you all a lesson.

...


wait..

damn it now i have tabs open with pictures of mot fail mk1 puntos.

good job i have no cash to afford this!

*checks bank*

yep.

 

[AndyRKett]

good job i have no cash to afford this!

*checks bank*

yep.

Find me a heater

 

[GrandeGuy]

Why don't you put it all back to carb spec, then fit bike carbs, more reliable and more power plus noise
I'm sure you can fabricate a nice inlet
Better fuelling, more reliable and cheaper.

 

[GrandeGuy]

But I still think derv engine conversion is the way forward,
Nice ducato 2.3

 

[panda panda]

#tvstar

 

[AndyRKett]

But I still think derv engine conversion is the way forward,
Nice ducato 2.3

The ducato is pretty good at ripping it's own gearbox to bits I'd hate to see what a 2.8 or 3.0 multijet would do to a panda's running gear


Then again they did make a ducato 4x4 :idea: