Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[Steve Silver]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Our car is still being investigated with a possible ECU swap from another new 1.2 tomorrow. This other 1.2 drives quite differently to ours and does not exhibit the same issues. Although at first we thought it was a map problem, we are now wondering too if it is some batch issue with the ECU or some other manufacturing defect on the car. Will update when we have more info

Alfie14, very good news and interesting to hear that the other 1.2 did not exhibit the problems. I will drop an email to VOSA this evening, and thanks for persevering

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Zanes I have already reported this issue to VOSA who are interested In the issue, see https://www.fiatforum.com/500/351381-500-euro-6-problems.html

Our car is still being investigated with a possible ECU swap from another new 1.2 tomorrow. This other 1.2 drives quite differently to ours and does not exhibit the same issues. Although at first we thought it was a map problem, we are now wondering too if it is some batch issue with the ECU or some other manufacturing defect on the car. Will update when we have more info

This is real problem solving, the ecu will give a better idea of what the problem is for sure.

Excellent- I was waiting/hoping someone would pop up and say "but I've got a new 1.2 and it's fine". Like Maxi says, this is good work by your dealer. Out of interest, do you have a feel for how much has been done "off their own backs" and how much support they've had from FIAT UK?

Could be something as utterly daft as a batch of ECUs have had the wrong map put on them or something.

I think I'd read that you'd contacted VOSA but missed the bit where they'd got back to you. I suppose this might well end in a recall.

 

[Super Uwe]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Well I wish all of you who are suffering with these problems all the best, and hope it gets sorted. I can't think of much worse than having a brand new car you can't rely on to pull away properly.

Incidentally, has anyone reported these issues with the 1.2 unit in the new Punto? I know the Punto 2012 is fairly quiet on here, but I've not seen any such complaints yet.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Well I wish all of you who are suffering with these problems all the best, and hope it gets sorted. I can't think of much worse than having a brand new car you can't rely on to pull away properly.

Incidentally, has anyone reported these issues with the 1.2 unit in the new Punto? I know the Punto 2012 is fairly quiet on here, but I've not seen any such complaints yet.

The Punto wouldn't happen to be built in a different factory by any chance, would it?

There again, 69hp in a car that big must be pretty gutless at the best of times

 

[306maxi]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

One would imagine that the engines are probably built in the fpt plant in Turin rather than in the factories assembling the cars.

One would imagine that they're built in the fpt plant in batches though.

 

[Super Uwe]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The Punto wouldn't happen to be built in a different factory by any chance, would it?

There again, 69hp in a car that big must be pretty gutless at the best of times

So are the Panda and 500 nowadays - the 500 is still made in Poland, but the Panda is now made down in the south of Italy. I think the Punto is made in yet another Italian factory?

But I get your point

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Good points Maxi and Uwe. Looking briefly online the 1.3 diesels are built at Tychy (but that's becausethe plant is a joint venture with GM or something-of course GM (Vauxhall/Opel) use the 1.3 multijet a lot- as do Suzuki funnily enough).

I suppose the new panda is sufficiently different that there's no need for it to be built with the 500.

 

[Mercky]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

So what about this dual potentiometer thingy that's supposedly fitted to the clutch? Has this been verified or is it a myth? Could be like early stop start systems that acted up on some cars but not all. Swopping out the ECU will definitely rule such things in or out I guess.

 

[306maxi]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Zanes I have already reported this issue to VOSA who are interested In the issue, see https://www.fiatforum.com/500/351381-500-euro-6-problems.html

Our car is still being investigated with a possible ECU swap from another new 1.2 tomorrow. This other 1.2 drives quite differently to ours and does not exhibit the same issues. Although at first we thought it was a map problem, we are now wondering too if it is some batch issue with the ECU or some other manufacturing defect on the car. Will update when we have more info

Any news?

 

[Alfie14]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi all
Apologies for the delay in responding, but it's been a weekend of decision. After investigation by the garage there are still no clues on why it is so poor. The 'good' 1.2 has been used as a reference for our car and ECU data collected and compared. However with the equipment available at the garage no discernable differences has been found. It was not possible to actually swap ECUs in the end due to the start up codes. The garage have stated that our car's performance is unacceptable and we have rejected the vehicle and undone the deal. Our garage intends to take the vehicle to fiat tech in Slough to find out what is going on. But they like us do not think a customer car should be used to evaluate a problem that fiat obviously have. We have also spoken to another dealer in our area in person who has confirm that fiat do have a problem with some of these 1.2 vehicles even if officially fiat are saying "change you driving style". We are pleased with the support from the garage but utterly frustrated with Fiat's attututide.

I would advise anyone buying a new 500 / Panda with a 1.2 engine to test drive their new vehicle before parting with their cash. Not all garages will take the approach ours has taken,

 

[306maxi]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Did you drive the other car?

Good to see there's a dealer doing it the right way and not just spouting crap like some others.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi all
Apologies for the delay in responding, but it's been a weekend of decision. After investigation by the garage there are still no clues on why it is so poor. The 'good' 1.2 has been used as a reference for our car and ECU data collected and compared. However with the equipment available at the garage no discernable differences has been found. It was not possible to actually swap ECUs in the end due to the start up codes. The garage have stated that our car's performance is unacceptable and we have rejected the vehicle and undone the deal. Our garage intends to take the vehicle to fiat tech in Slough to find out what is going on. But they like us do not think a customer car should be used to evaluate a problem that fiat obviously have. We have also spoken to another dealer in our area in person who has confirm that fiat do have a problem with some of these 1.2 vehicles even if officially fiat are saying "change you driving style". We are pleased with the support from the garage but utterly frustrated with Fiat's attututide.

I would advise anyone buying a new 500 / Panda with a 1.2 engine to test drive their new vehicle before parting with their cash. Not all garages will take the approach ours has taken,

First bold bit; not surprising, as the report into the ignition switch debacle at GM mentioned there are really three levels of ECU interrogation available; Dealer, Manufacturer and ECU Manufacturer.

Second bold bit; same old, same old with the unusual feature of a good dealer that doesn't just shift the junk from Fiat onto the customer.

Sorry to hear you rejected

 

[Alfie14]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Didn't have an opportunity to drive the 'good' 1.2 but the garage staff did hence the comparison with ours.
I really don't understand what Fiat are playing at. Its quite clear there is a defect is some sort that has found its way into several vehicles. We have been advised another dealer group has 16 vehicles with these problems.

 

[306maxi]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Thanks David Bliss, I was due to put down a deposit on a new 1.2 Panda Easy today, I'll wait for the time being. I have the 1.1 Active engine in a 2010 at the moment, but would like a new car.

306maxi I don't know what your problem is - you don't even own a new car with the 69hp engine. David compared the new and old after discovering that the new one is unpredictable / slow / dangerous in traffic. Maybe in Wales you're good with that, but as a city car 0-40-0 bursts are 95% of driving.

David's insights are far more valuable than someone who bought a car 5 years ago.

Hippycinq has one of the newest 500's on here and is NOT having the problem.


This is why I didn't just fall on the bandwagon, because you CAN NOT definitively say that a problem is x or y till the problem is either fixed OR you find out that every single person with x in common has the same issue. It is very much looking like it's NOT an issue with every single 14 plate 1.2 which would point to it not being an issue brought on my different emission standards.

I've a 14 plate 500 1.2, I've actually found it to be better all round in terms of acceleration than my old 1.2 on a 62 plate.. a lot less sluggish..

MPG isn't looking too fantastic, but I have only done about 400 miles so far and I do a lot of very short trips too and from work, so I doubt that they are helping with that.

It's sad that people like yourself are allowed to be abusive, dismissive and rude to people who have offered their time and effort to help countless people on this forum, even using the fact that I have 21k posts as some kind of negative thing.


It's by being here for this many years that you get a handle on how a forum lights up when there are common or less common issues. Considering that this fault could potentially cause an accident, it's quite quiet compared to the Start&Stop threads of 2009/2010 which were a lot busier.


We have a thread about the treatment of new members, but sadly people are allowed to be cockish towards more senior members and they just have to grin and bear it. I for one am starting to get tired of it and might just find another forum where newer more abusive members are dealt with more harshly than on here and leave all the ignorance and supposition behind. I try my best to help people on here and sometimes that involves me not agreeing with what seems to be the common view, for good reason as well........

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

This is a difficult one to call because although it doesn't look like it's common to all newly delivered 500's, for those folks who are experiencing this, it's a bigger and potentially more serious problem than the S/S issue. I don't want to see this getting downplayed, but I don't want to be alarmist and put anyone off choosing a new 1.2 either.

I'm keeping a completely open mind on what's behind it - we simply don't know the facts. But we've already seen one car rejected because of it, and more than one seriously unhappy purchaser. So my advice to anyone about to take delivery of a new 1.2 stays the same - test drive the car you are about to buy before accepting the handover.

The good news to me is that if it is only affecting some of the most recently produced cars, there must be a way of resolving it.

Sadly though, what this does have in common with the S/S issue is that a lot of folks are getting wildly conflicting stories from both Fiat CS and the dealerships, much of which appears to be cobblers.

Hippycinq's experience would suggest that it's possible for the latest 1.2's to run without a major flat spot in the acceleration profile, so my message to folks with this issue is to keep complaining until your car gets fixed properly and don't be fobbed off with throwaway lines such as "they're all like that".

By the way, the same goes for folks with S/S problems - the system is perfectly capable of working properly (mine's been just fine for over 4 years on the original battery), so keep pestering whoever you bought the car from until it's sorted.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Annnnndddddddd I think I've been on the other side of this.

Coming home yesterday there was a brown 500 (colour therapy?) waiting to pull across the NSL road I was on. Started to pull across and it was going to be one of those "close, but if you pull across quickly it'll be OK" moves so I back off. It got about 3 foot across and it slowed right down, almost as if it'd stalled and I got on the brakes. It then sort of kangaroo'd away and pulled across. Looking across at it's back end it was indeed a 14 plate. Might be an unfamiliar driver, might not. If it was a driver unfamiliar with the car I would have thought in that situation they'd have revved it higher than needed tbh.

If that indeed was the throttle issue, it'll get someone KSI'd before much longer.

 

[306maxi]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Yeah I really do hope Fiat does something about this sooner or later. This is the sort of silly thing that really hurts reputations and should never happen.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Might have a look at the dashcam later and see if it's still on the card.

 

[Officina red]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Annnnndddddddd I think I've been on the other side of this.

Coming home yesterday there was a brown 500 (colour therapy?) waiting to pull across the NSL road I was on. Started to pull across and it was going to be one of those "close, but if you pull across quickly it'll be OK" moves so I back off. It got about 3 foot across and it slowed right down, almost as if it'd stalled and I got on the brakes. It then sort of kangaroo'd away and pulled across. Looking across at it's back end it was indeed a 14 plate. Might be an unfamiliar driver, might not. If it was a driver unfamiliar with the car I would have thought in that situation they'd have revved it higher than needed tbh.

If that indeed was the throttle issue, it'll get someone KSI'd before much longer.

Hi I was driving my 14 plate 500 this morning ( and I have gotten around the problem by revving the car to 2000-2500 revs before I pull away and the 500 drives ok)
but this morning i came to pull away at a roundabout and I simply forgot
and I pulled away at normal revs (maybe 1300-1500),
the 500 goes so slowly, that you think damn I need to floor the gas pedal,

which I did, but then the car does not accelerate quickly, it takes its own sweet time to build up speed. I think that is what people call the flat spot.

but if you put the revs up before you pull away its fine.


Zanes if you had been behind my 500 this morning you would be describing a bnw 500 instead of a new age cream 500

 

[ZeeBo]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi guys back in this post again. I posted back almost on the first page of this thread with what I thought was a fix for my car, a missing bolt from the inlet manifold on number 4 cylinder. When I fitted a new bolt the lack of power on take off seemed to have been cured but it turned out it only relieved the symptoms a little. When idleing the car would still have a little 'bumble', almost like a gentle misfire and when pulling away it still dropped power but not as much as before, I learned to live with it..
The past couple of weekends I've been out for a bit of a run and really didn't enjoy driving the 500.
So when I came back to this thread and it was on page 11 I thought I'd look over the car again this time with air filter housing off, to see if I could find anything else, and found another manifold bolt missing this time the one under the manifold on cylinder 4. I've fitted another replacement bolt and it's like driving a new car, pulls in forth accelerates up through the gears like my old 59 plate 500.
I've taken picture of the manifold where the new bolt is fitted can you guys look to see if your cars look like they are missing the bolt/s if the bolts are there can you check the tightness of the most accessible one I'm hoping this could be the problem were suffering from.

Picture to follow