dave said:

but you don't want them to have a right to vote




the product don't have to go up the people at the top just have to take a cut and business rates have to come down and that used to give people a liveable wage,

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Are you being deliberately obtuse or can't understand English. I have no problem with people who work and get benifits voting, what I object to is that as the non-working population grows the government dictate policies to keep their votes thus costing us who work even more in taxes. I also have no problem with people who are retired voting.

Do you understand how this country works? If buisinesses pay less tax then that money would have to be 'made up' from somewhere, where do you think that somewhere would be? My best guess would be the tax paying public.

If you ran a buisiness and had the choice of two workers, both equally as skilled and one wanted £10 an hour and the other wanted £15 an hour which would you employ? Of course you employ the £10 an hour worker as that will still get your work done but will give you a better balance sheet at the end of the year.

Unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world or some utopian paradise where there is plenty for all. People are payed the going rate for the job they do. As George Orwell put so elequently, everyone is made equal, its just that some are more equal than others.

scout500 said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse or can't understand English.

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you said

scout500 said:

I also think anyone on benefits should not have a vote, if they don't contribute then they shouldn't have a say in the way the country is run.

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scout500 said:

Do you understand how this country works?

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yes all the money gets used up with useless consultations, meetings and bad management, the rest is creamed off for shareholders and greedy directors and bankers. then invested abroad.

last time the tories were in they brain washed half the country into thinking it was the unions killing the country so they got rid of them and everyone lost their jobs and went on benefits, this time they are brainwashing the country into blaming everyone on benefits for us being in the crap

Ah yes, blame the Tories for everything - not the person who is deliberately defrauding the system because they can

dave I just knew it would be the Tories fault
In that quote I said "if they don't contribute then they shouldn't have a say in the way the country is run." working is contributing even if the pay is low.

And NO you don't know how this country works. You have some warped unrealistic view on how you think it should work in an ideal Marxist utopia. NEWS FLASH that ideal doesn't exist.

the benifits as somebody has said are there when times are down on them

So why not make it a limited time? So why not make it so those people who are capable of working put on a time scale of 1 year to get a job and make a living, and get off the system

if they dont - they should be kicked in the backside and given nothing, knowing they had warnings of this coming
If circumstance meant they haven't been able to, such as family members been ill and been in there care etc - then they should be re-evaluated and given an extension time, and evaluated as needed

It means we dont pay for the scroungers of life living on fags and booze and been a PITA

Ziggy

I also believe the health service is another area that needs looking at.

It was originally set up in order to keep the cannon fodder fit enugh to go to war.
Nowadays, the NHS and the benefits system is simply an added attraction for the freeloaders of the world.
You cannot move in some hospitals for the immigrants who land on our shores purely for the free medical treatment - and yet, when we go abroad, there's no treatment without showing the medical card or the credit card.
So maybe the health service should be privatised?
A quick google throws up "private health care from £9.92" as one of the top links.
Less than a pint of beer or a packet of fags per week - I'm sure most on benefits could afford to pay this? And the system could include family discounts.
Of course, this is the basic package - but then if there was a family discount then a higher package could be bought.
If private healthcare can be so high quality on just the few that are contributing, just imagine how much better it would be with 30 million workers contributing.

At the end of the day the Country is like a business. When it's paying out more than what's getting paid in we're in the s*** end of story.

Ziggy122 said:

the benifits as somebody has said are there when times are down on them

So why not make it a limited time? So why not make it so those people who are capable of working put on a time scale of 1 year to get a job and make a living, and get off the system

if they dont - they should be kicked in the backside and given nothing, knowing they had warnings of this coming
If circumstance meant they haven't been able to, such as family members been ill and been in there care etc - then they should be re-evaluated and given an extension time, and evaluated as needed

It means we dont pay for the scroungers of life living on fags and booze and been a PITA

Ziggy

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In boom times,a year is fair
in this climate I would say 2 years
however my mrs has been laid off and has picked up casual work in under a week
low pay,crap hours but its still work
sadly/luckily I have had to/been able to double my hours
80+ hour weeks yay......................

ChrisUK said:

At the end of the day the Country is like a business. When it's paying out more than what's getting paid in we're in the s*** end of story.

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and like a badly managed company a badly managed country will end up in the s***

dave said:

and like a badly managed company a badly managed country will end up in the s***

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Yep see Ireland, Greece, Italy and Cyprus, nobody pays taxes and country spirals into insolvency, which is then bailed out by the affluent ones.

scout500 said:

Yep see Ireland, Greece, Italy and Cyprus, nobody pays taxes and country spirals into insolvency, which is then bailed out by the affluent ones.

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Thats a very bald statement...
They dont pay taxes? Everything was fine before EU and EURO came in force...
My dad in italy pays more taxes than ever since euro
Get a little more information before making such statements:banghead:

turbo_pib said:

Thats a very bald statement...
They dont pay taxes? Everything was fine before EU and EURO came in force...
My dad in italy pays more taxes than ever since euro
Get a little more information before making such statements:banghead:

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Totally agree, it was a very sweeping statement which is a generalisation. I'm sure many people in all those countries are hard working and pay taxes, however the press would have us believe that ALL the peoples of these countries were avoiding paying their taxes. I apologize if what I said caused offence but I was parroting the press.

As far as the EU goes I think there are quite a few countries people that regret their governments jumping in with both feet.

Don't be too hard on yourself. I think we all know that the prevailing culture in many southern European countries was to get away with it if you can. Many people are now paying tax for the first time, and if those countries have been baled out then what's wrong with that? If ewverybody pays their fair share (and I unclude our own country in that) then surely it is better for everybody?

turbo_pib said:

Thats a very bald statement...
They dont pay taxes? Everything was fine before EU and EURO came in force...
My dad in italy pays more taxes than ever since euro
Get a little more information before making such statements:banghead:

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To a point I agree with you.
Many countries that joined the EU should never havee been allowed to in the first place. Their economies were not in good enough shape, but the main reason that they have gone downhill since is that they were able to borrow money too cheaply on the back of being part of the Euro , which led them to over spend and not get their budgets balanced. On top of that, the fact that they were then tied to the Euro made their exports and tourism businesses suffer, and there was nothing they could do about that.
If you want to blame anybody, blame Helmut Kohl who steamrollered the Euro project through in the 80's.

pooroldcodger said:

Don't be too hard on yourself. I think we all know that the prevailing culture in many southern European countries was to get away with it if you can. Many people are now paying tax for the first time, and if those countries have been baled out then what's wrong with that? If ewverybody pays their fair share (and I unclude our own country in that) then surely it is better for everybody?

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"The prevailing culture of many southern europe countries was to get away if you can"
Really? But we are all here complaining about uk people on benefits when they should not be and getting away with it
"Many people are paying tax for the first time"
In which country is this happening as tax have been in place since the roman imperium?
Regarding the bail out read up about the "lisbon treaty" and you will get a better idea on how wrong a bail out is, and how a failure EU has been

pooroldcodger said:

To a point I agree with you.
Many countries that joined the EU should never havee been allowed to in the first place. Their economies were not in good enough shape, but the main reason that they have gone downhill since is that they were able to borrow money too cheaply on the back of being part of the Euro , which led them to over spend and not get their budgets balanced. On top of that, the fact that they were then tied to the Euro made their exports and tourism businesses suffer, and there was nothing they could do about that.
If you want to blame anybody, blame Helmut Kohl who steamrollered the Euro project through in the 80's.

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Absolutely
The EU is a total failure and the citizen taxpayers were never aloud to vote for a yes or a no
On in some cases (ireland) even when citizens voted trough a referendum NO, the EU still went in imposing euro and their laws
In my case i left italy shortly after euro was imposed to us (i was 17 when i left italy), sovranity was lost, the lira currency was sold cheap, everything doubled up on price except wages and money was just wasted by stupid politicians
Mario monti was chosen by EU to rescue italy and since is been in charge we had record times
Highest ever unemployment and suicides
Highest taxes ever (60% of earning)
Highest closure of shops and industry
Deleted the art 18 of italian constitution so anybody can be fired without any notice
I can go on forever with what this guy chosen by EU not trough vote has done...
I soly blame EU for all this economic meltdown as one currency cannot fit all different countries and we are now witnessing the results of it

turbo_pib said:

"The prevailing culture of many southern europe countries was to get away if you can"
Really? But we are all here complaining about uk people on benefits when they should not be and getting away with it
"Many people are paying tax for the first time"
In which country is this happening as tax have been in place since the roman imperium?
Regarding the bail out read up about the "lisbon treaty" and you will get a better idea on how wrong a bail out is, and how a failure EU has been






Absolutely
The EU is a total failure and the citizen taxpayers were never aloud to vote for a yes or a no
On in some cases (ireland) even when citizens voted trough a referendum NO, the EU still went in imposing euro and their laws
In my case i left italy shortly after euro was imposed to us (i was 17 when i left italy), sovranity was lost, the lira currency was sold cheap, everything doubled up on price except wages and money was just wasted by stupid politicians
Mario monti was chosen by EU to rescue italy and since is been in charge we had record times
Highest ever unemployment and suicides
Highest taxes ever (60% of earning)
Highest closure of shops and industry
Deleted the art 18 of italian constitution so anybody can be fired without any notice
I can go on forever with what this guy chosen by EU not trough vote has done...
I soly blame EU for all this economic meltdown as one currency cannot fit all different countries and we are now witnessing the results of it

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I don't disagree with you. Regarding paying tax for the first time, of course tax was supposed to be paid, but the reality has often been different.
The idea of monetary union has been a politician's vanity project which was always ridiculous. How can Germany and Greece share a common currency? The convergence criteria set up to protect against what has happened were fudged to allow the weaker countries (and some of the not so weak countries) in.
Funnily enough, in all the anti-Thatcher propaganda we have been hearing over the last 2 weeks especially from certain quarters, very little if anything has been said that she was the one major European politician who was prepared to put her neck on the block and speak out against the Euro project as she saw it as the creation of a Germany-centric Euro state, and a currency straight-jacket that would force many countries in to austerity and ruin. How right she was.

pooroldcodger said:

I don't disagree with you. Regarding paying tax for the first time, of course tax was supposed to be paid, but the reality has often been different.
The idea of monetary union has been a politician's vanity project which was always ridiculous. How can Germany and Greece share a common currency? The convergence criteria set up to protect against what has happened were fudged to allow the weaker countries (and some of the not so weak countries) in.
Funnily enough, in all the anti-Thatcher propaganda we have been hearing over the last 2 weeks especially from certain quarters, very little if anything has been said that she was the one major European politician who was prepared to put her neck on the block and speak out against the Euro project as she saw it as the creation of a Germany-centric Euro state, and a currency straight-jacket that would force many countries in to austerity and ruin. How right she was.

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I really dont know what to say about Thatcher as i simply dont know enough about her...i heard bad and good things but for sure she was right about EU
The conditions imposed to EU member states are ridicolous
When a state needs a bail out every member country has to chip in basically, and italy had to borrow money from the stock market (17% interest) to rescue spain banks and getting eventually repaiment with 7% interest
That simply does not make sense as italy would be making a loss and will need money to be bailed out soon!
Italy is already in a bad way and soon to follow greece path unfortunately, and the news are not showing the reality of europe..but then again recently BBC had 50 milion payment sent by EU i wonder whats that for?

50 Million from the EU to the BBC? I can't help you with that one. I haven't heard of it, but we shouldn't be too surprised at anything!
I work a lot with Portugal. What I know of their situation is that they used to be just about competitive against Asia, and when sailing costs and lead times are taken in to account, they still had a chance. But once they lost the Escudo, and everything became Euro, their competitiveness disappeared rapidly and businesses closed. Tourists found it dearer, so went to places outside the Euro instead (such as Turkey). That is just 1 little example.

sludgeguts said:

You cannot move in some hospitals for the immigrants who land on our shores purely for the free medical treatment

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Really which hospitals are these then? is this based on personal experience or the warped sensationalised journalism of some right wing news paper not fit for wrapping chips?

Seriously there are very few people who specifically travel to the UK for free medical treatment, mainly because if you are no a UK resident you don't get free medical treatment you get charged, and those that do travel here ironically come from places like the USA where their healthcare system is based on insurances and working, much like you've just suggested, where the rich get the very best of healthcare and the poorest in society are left to struggle in free clinics with poor treatment and out dated ineffective medications.

as for the suggestion of privatising health care in the uk, currently you pay tax to fund the NHS, under a privatised system your tax money will have to be stretched between paying for services and paying a profit to the companies, it will still remain as an NHS based system with care 'free at the point of delivery' its just services being run by private companies with a bottom line to protect

All of this aside The problem with this thread and politics is once again the 'bigger picture'

labour created the NHS and the benefits system the tories then added to it for political gain as did labour and so on and so forth so that now the welfare system is so grotesquely enlarge and unmanageable its starting to collapse under its own weight, but because of the political system and people in general you can't just scrap it and start again, each administration has to chip away at the problems a bit at a time creating more problems along the way, anything to drastic is met with huge opposition.

The current benefits system is idiotic, why are we paying tax/child credits out to the same people who paid them in? with people earning up to £60k a year able to claim 'benefits' its simply ridiculous we're living in a capitalist culture with a pseudo democratic government based on marxist/communist principles.

Every man for him self unless you get the raw end of the deal in which case we're all in this together and hand outs for all

Its no wonder the country is so messed up.:bang:

I don't know if it is fair to say that some hospitals are so full of "health tourists" to give this a polite name, but I do know from first hand experience of relatives who work in the NHS that there is no real appetite to charge patients because there isn't a straightforward mechanism. Also the chances of getting accurate names and addresses and invoices paid are rather slim.
One particular example was of a visitor who had come for a chest xray because her potential new employer insisted on it. Having had the Xray this particular woman stunned the staff by asking where does she pay? She was told to forget about it as nobody pays. It would "create more work than it was worth".