Technical What to look for in order to find a reliable 4x4

[ItsTooBright]

Hi guys, I am looking into importing a Panda 4x4 (Classic) from Japan to Washington State, U.S. (I chose Japan because it costs half as much to ship than from Italy/UK)
I am wondering if all 4x4s had the same engines, if not, which engine is best?
I already know about checking the CV boots, are there any other things to look out for?
I don't want any surprises when I spend this much money to ship one of these across the ocean.

Thanks for anything you can advise me on!
-Eli

 

[ItsTooBright]

I was also wondering what trim levels are best?
I know that the Sisleys are the best but they are harder to find, at least in Japan.

 

[ItsTooBright]

Would a Mk1 4x4 be too hard to find parts for?

 

[Dragon Man]

hey there, a mk1 panda would be a bit difficult to find parts for but a mk2 panda (older than 2003) not so much. i am still finding bits for my 1991 mk2 panda with relative ease.

engine wise you only really have the FIRE engine to choose from. here in the UK they only came with a 999cc carburetted engine however over in some countries they came with fuel injection and i think in the later ones they came with the fuel injected 1242cc FIRE engine.

trim spec, nothing much is different with the Sisley and standard 4x4. the main thing is the Sisley gets headlight washers built into the front bumper, the little 4x4 information plate on the sisley spec carpet in front of the gear stick, the half PVC seats with canoe badges, the "Panda 4x4 Sisley" seat belts, a speedo with sisley decals, a grey head lining and... i think thats about it. oh and they came in 3 "sisley spec" colours. a darkish red, blue, and a darkish green (like mine)

the main thing to look out for is rust.. everything else can be repaired pretty much. these things are a dream to work on. everythings a 10mm or 13mm bolt head pretty much with some bigger stuff (15mm and 17mm maybe a 19mm) for suspension components and engine mounting bolts.

fuel tanks can be hard to get hold of for a carbed 4x4 but if you have a leaking one and know someone good with a welder i would remove the tank, take the fuel sender out, fill with water a few times, cut the bottom off the tank, remove the baffle plates, repair any thin points, weld it back together, seal the holes with tape and thin plastic, then use a 2 part epoxy fuel tank sealer.. pour it in, rotate the tank so it coats all surfaces inside, let it dry out, and refit it all back together again. i would pain the tank externally with a nice rust converter paint then cover it with some thick anti stone chip or underseal.
this is what i had to do with my fuel tank.
CV boots hold the gearbox oil in, if you find a barn find with a noticeable pool of oil under it, dont worry so much about it. it will just be the gearbox oil leaked out.
the prop shaft may need a rebuild but you can drive these around without a prop shaft while its being rebuilt and its perfectly fine.
a panda older than 1995 will have spade terminal earthing points that are well common to go open circuit due to a bit of surface corrosion. a quick clean up soon fixes them. you will know they are acting up as silly earthing issues will make themselves known like the fuel gauge working with the indicators or my personal favourite, the interior light earthing through the fuel tank level sensor so it goes dim and bright as you rock the car (documented on youtube by yours truly).

one thing i do recommend is to pop the rocker cover off and make sure the oil spray bar is nice and clear. i had carbon build up blocking every FIRE engine spray bar i have checked stopping oil spray over the cam lobes.

brakes.. well given the age i would replace most for new parts anyway.

other than that, cracking on for 20 to 30 year old oil seals getting tired and the rubber bits of the fuel lines being replaced.. you should be all good.

if you go for a carbed panda 4x4 i would get a few spare ignition modules. if one ever goes i would also swap out the coil too as thats usually the cause of it failing. other than that its perfectly reliable needing little to no maintenance with the distributor not using points.

i would keep away from any panda with the BOSH ECU fuel injection system. you can tell them apart from the other one as the BOSH fuel injection system uses a distributor. (this one only does the fuel side of the engine NOT the spark)

the Magneti Marelli ECU fuel injection system is brilliant. it controls both fuel and spark and is just generally the best. way more water resistant than the old distributor (not that i have had any problems with mine and water ingress) and has the bonus of AFC (auto fuel cutoff) so unlike a carb it just cuts the fuel to the engine completely when its under negative load (deacceleration) so save that tiny bit more fuel. they are nice as it uses a lambda (exhaust oxygen) sensor to make sure the fuel/air mixture is always perfect. they also have cat converters too. im not sure about the Japanese spec engines but i would assume the later pandas made after say 1995 all used this Magneti Marelli ECU system.
for this system i would keep a spare crank sensor and a spare lambda sensor (not that the lambda is difficult to find as it just uses a generic narrow band lambda)
fun fact, i got this fuel injection system working on a twin cylinder lawn mower engine. the lambda compensated for the difference in engine size!


i hope this helped. check out the panda fault finding section too.

 

[rmjbn1]

I was thinking rust too, as I understand Japan has a similar climate to British Isles and the resulting dissolving tin...

It seems there are quite a few old 500s and 124s in the US, so presumably there are specialists who can source parts (at a price, if they're being shipped from Europe).

Hope you're able to source a solid one Eli

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I was thinking rust too, as I understand Japan has a similar climate to British Isles and the resulting dissolving tin...

It seems there are quite a few old 500s and 124s in the US, so presumably there are specialists who can source parts (at a price, if they're being shipped from Europe).

Hope you're able to source a solid one Eli

Japanese imports are exposed to a similar climate, but unlike the UK the Japanese don't use road salt and that's why these cars are typically in way better condition v-a-v corrosion.

 

[ItsTooBright]

hey there, a mk1 panda would be a bit difficult to find parts for but a mk2 panda (older than 2003) not so much. i am still finding bits for my 1991 mk2 panda with relative ease.

engine wise you only really have the FIRE engine to choose from. here in the UK they only came with a 999cc carburetted engine however over in some countries they came with fuel injection and i think in the later ones they came with the fuel injected 1242cc FIRE engine.

trim spec, nothing much is different with the Sisley and standard 4x4. the main thing is the Sisley gets headlight washers built into the front bumper, the little 4x4 information plate on the sisley spec carpet in front of the gear stick, the half PVC seats with canoe badges, the "Panda 4x4 Sisley" seat belts, a speedo with sisley decals, a grey head lining and... i think thats about it. oh and they came in 3 "sisley spec" colours. a darkish red, blue, and a darkish green (like mine)

the main thing to look out for is rust.. everything else can be repaired pretty much. these things are a dream to work on. everythings a 10mm or 13mm bolt head pretty much with some bigger stuff (15mm and 17mm maybe a 19mm) for suspension components and engine mounting bolts.

fuel tanks can be hard to get hold of for a carbed 4x4 but if you have a leaking one and know someone good with a welder i would remove the tank, take the fuel sender out, fill with water a few times, cut the bottom off the tank, remove the baffle plates, repair any thin points, weld it back together, seal the holes with tape and thin plastic, then use a 2 part epoxy fuel tank sealer.. pour it in, rotate the tank so it coats all surfaces inside, let it dry out, and refit it all back together again. i would pain the tank externally with a nice rust converter paint then cover it with some thick anti stone chip or underseal.
this is what i had to do with my fuel tank.
CV boots hold the gearbox oil in, if you find a barn find with a noticeable pool of oil under it, dont worry so much about it. it will just be the gearbox oil leaked out.
the prop shaft may need a rebuild but you can drive these around without a prop shaft while its being rebuilt and its perfectly fine.
a panda older than 1995 will have spade terminal earthing points that are well common to go open circuit due to a bit of surface corrosion. a quick clean up soon fixes them. you will know they are acting up as silly earthing issues will make themselves known like the fuel gauge working with the indicators or my personal favourite, the interior light earthing through the fuel tank level sensor so it goes dim and bright as you rock the car (documented on youtube by yours truly).

one thing i do recommend is to pop the rocker cover off and make sure the oil spray bar is nice and clear. i had carbon build up blocking every FIRE engine spray bar i have checked stopping oil spray over the cam lobes.

brakes.. well given the age i would replace most for new parts anyway.

other than that, cracking on for 20 to 30 year old oil seals getting tired and the rubber bits of the fuel lines being replaced.. you should be all good.

if you go for a carbed panda 4x4 i would get a few spare ignition modules. if one ever goes i would also swap out the coil too as thats usually the cause of it failing. other than that its perfectly reliable needing little to no maintenance with the distributor not using points.

i would keep away from any panda with the BOSH ECU fuel injection system. you can tell them apart from the other one as the BOSH fuel injection system uses a distributor. (this one only does the fuel side of the engine NOT the spark)

the Magneti Marelli ECU fuel injection system is brilliant. it controls both fuel and spark and is just generally the best. way more water resistant than the old distributor (not that i have had any problems with mine and water ingress) and has the bonus of AFC (auto fuel cutoff) so unlike a carb it just cuts the fuel to the engine completely when its under negative load (deacceleration) so save that tiny bit more fuel. they are nice as it uses a lambda (exhaust oxygen) sensor to make sure the fuel/air mixture is always perfect. they also have cat converters too. im not sure about the Japanese spec engines but i would assume the later pandas made after say 1995 all used this Magneti Marelli ECU system.
for this system i would keep a spare crank sensor and a spare lambda sensor (not that the lambda is difficult to find as it just uses a generic narrow band lambda)
fun fact, i got this fuel injection system working on a twin cylinder lawn mower engine. the lambda compensated for the difference in engine size!


i hope this helped. check out the panda fault finding section too.

Thanks so much for the in-depth reply, John!
So Mk1s are that mechanically different from Mk2s?

I didn't realize that Sisley was mostly just a cosmetic package, headlight washers sound cool though!

From reading people's builds on here I have noticed that rust is the big problem! Nice to know that they are easy to work on!

Thanks for the tip on the fuel tank!

What is the downside to the BOCH system?

That Magneti Marelli system sounds perfect! I can't believe it worked on a twin cylinder engine! Have you tried it on a single cylinder?

All this information will come in very handy!

I was thinking rust too, as I understand Japan has a similar climate to British Isles and the resulting dissolving tin...

It seems there are quite a few old 500s and 124s in the US, so presumably there are specialists who can source parts (at a price, if they're being shipped from Europe).

Hope you're able to source a solid one Eli

I found that Ricambio has a ton of Panda parts, are there any other sites I should check out?

Unfortunately I won't be able to get one for at least 10 more months, when I turn 18, because I don't want the complications of importing it under my parent's name.
Also, I need to get this guy road-worthy first:

I will be putting this in Member's Motors soon so you guys can see more details.

Japanese imports are exposed to a similar climate, but unlike the UK the Japanese don't use road salt and that's why these cars are typically in way better condition v-a-v corrosion.

Thank you! That is encouraging!

 

[Dragon Man]

theres some differences between mk1 and mk2. first of all ANYTHING after 2003 is a mk3 so forget about them (they are still cool though). i cant remember off hand the official running dates of the mk1 but i think the mk2 came out in 1984/5. mk1s are very rare. google "Fiat Panda 4x4 Madagascar" thats a mk1 4x4. they never came with the 999cc FIRE engine. they came with a very nice pushrod engine i cant remember the actual size but i believe it to be a variant of the "903cc OHV" engine. which was used in many Fiats. right up to the Fiat Seicento (with a different cylinder head making its engine size 899cc) an amazing engine, and ive had both 903cc and 899cc engines in past cars (Cinquecento and Seat Marbella which is a mk1 panda!... made by Seat!)
the front struts are slightly different on the mk1 4x4 to the mk2 4x4.
also the panda 4x4 sits 2cm taller than the 2wd panda. the front struts on all panda 4x4s are 2cm taller than the struts on the 2wd panda. both can be used on both types of panda though it will change the ride height by 2cm on the front.
due to the panda 4x4... being well a 4x4 it uses a single solid axle on the rear. where as the 2wd panda uses a thing called an Omega axle. both 2wd and 4x4 pandas run normally in front wheel drive mode. the 4x4 option is really only to be used on surfaces that the wheels can slip on. this stops tension building up in the system which can stress out the various components in the drivetrain. think a locked differential on a road surface.. both wheels will turn at the same speed no matter what. the same happens with the pandas system only with one wheel on the front and one wheel on the back as the panda has no central differential.
in all my years of having a panda 4x4 i have never "gotten stuck" i use the car in 2wd mode as far as i can, then when that gets stuck, up comes the "go anywhere handle" i get the little "4x4" light come on the dash and i continue on like i was never stuck to start with. they are quite something.


the Bosch system has no diagnostics, its pretty much a glorified carburettor only it can self adjust the idle and mixture. from personal experience though when they start going wrong they are a nightmare to get right again. its common for the idle stepper motor adjuster actuator to go faulty however other things can cause issues too. with them not having a crank position sensor the only timing it gets is from the distributor. which means that it injects fuel late for the next ignition. if you have a catalytic converter due to the way they work you can often smell rotten eggs from the exhaust as the ecu does not always put the system into AFC mode while coasting.. so it keeps injecting fuel while the engine is being driven by the wheels and weight of the car. it eventually poisons the cat if its cause is not found.
i did retrofit this bosch system to Talon, my Panda 4x4 sisley. i have it documented on youtube. i had nothing but constant issues with it so went back to carburettor.

i would be tempted to retrofit the marelli system to the original 999cc FIRE engine.. however pretty much all the lower seals need renewing including both ends of the crank. i am also contemplating "retrofitting" a ~2010 era 1.4L 8v FIRE engine (the same engine as what the car has already.. only larger and way more modern.. modern.. maybe not a good thing hmm) and then retrofitting to that new 1.4 engine the older Marelli ECU from off a 1.2L fiat Punto 75 engine as from looking it up, it all should just bolt on via swapping the intake manifold to the older style.
i want to keep with a 8v engine as they are not interference.. meaning if the cam belt snaps nothing happens. you just put a new belt on and everything works again.. no damage. however all 16v engines are interference engines, if the belt snaps i will be doing a valve train rebuild.
not just that the 8v cylinder head is a lot smaller than the 16v so will not look so out of place, and the 8v gets more torque which i prefer over hp.

yes the marelli system can be adapted to work on 2 or 4 cyl engines as it uses a "wasted spark" ignition system using 2 coils over a distributor or sequential spark system using 4 individual coils. its a nice easy simple system. one coil provides spark to two cylinders. when the spark plug fires in one cylinder on the ignition stroke, another spark plug will fire at the same time on another cylinder on the exhaust stroke thus a wasted spark. to get it to work on a 2cyl engine you just use 2 normal coils over the twin style ones.. the ecu soon learns the fuel mixture from the exhaust gas sensor and adjusts its self for the smaller engine size. the hardest part is getting the crank sensor in the right place.
the marelli system does support OBD1 communication using a 3 pin connector.

 

[ItsTooBright]

theres some differences between mk1 and mk2. first of all ANYTHING after 2003 is a mk3 so forget about them (they are still cool though). i cant remember off hand the official running dates of the mk1 but i think the mk2 came out in 1984/5. mk1s are very rare. google "Fiat Panda 4x4 Madagascar" thats a mk1 4x4. they never came with the 999cc FIRE engine. they came with a very nice pushrod engine i cant remember the actual size but i believe it to be a variant of the "903cc OHV" engine. which was used in many Fiats. right up to the Fiat Seicento (with a different cylinder head making its engine size 899cc) an amazing engine, and ive had both 903cc and 899cc engines in past cars (Cinquecento and Seat Marbella which is a mk1 panda!... made by Seat!)
the front struts are slightly different on the mk1 4x4 to the mk2 4x4.
also the panda 4x4 sits 2cm taller than the 2wd panda. the front struts on all panda 4x4s are 2cm taller than the struts on the 2wd panda. both can be used on both types of panda though it will change the ride height by 2cm on the front.
due to the panda 4x4... being well a 4x4 it uses a single solid axle on the rear. where as the 2wd panda uses a thing called an Omega axle. both 2wd and 4x4 pandas run normally in front wheel drive mode. the 4x4 option is really only to be used on surfaces that the wheels can slip on. this stops tension building up in the system which can stress out the various components in the drivetrain. think a locked differential on a road surface.. both wheels will turn at the same speed no matter what. the same happens with the pandas system only with one wheel on the front and one wheel on the back as the panda has no central differential.
in all my years of having a panda 4x4 i have never "gotten stuck" i use the car in 2wd mode as far as i can, then when that gets stuck, up comes the "go anywhere handle" i get the little "4x4" light come on the dash and i continue on like i was never stuck to start with. they are quite something.


the Bosch system has no diagnostics, its pretty much a glorified carburettor only it can self adjust the idle and mixture. from personal experience though when they start going wrong they are a nightmare to get right again. its common for the idle stepper motor adjuster actuator to go faulty however other things can cause issues too. with them not having a crank position sensor the only timing it gets is from the distributor. which means that it injects fuel late for the next ignition. if you have a catalytic converter due to the way they work you can often smell rotten eggs from the exhaust as the ecu does not always put the system into AFC mode while coasting.. so it keeps injecting fuel while the engine is being driven by the wheels and weight of the car. it eventually poisons the cat if its cause is not found.
i did retrofit this bosch system to Talon, my Panda 4x4 sisley. i have it documented on youtube. i had nothing but constant issues with it so went back to carburettor.

i would be tempted to retrofit the marelli system to the original 999cc FIRE engine.. however pretty much all the lower seals need renewing including both ends of the crank. i am also contemplating "retrofitting" a ~2010 era 1.4L 8v FIRE engine (the same engine as what the car has already.. only larger and way more modern.. modern.. maybe not a good thing hmm) and then retrofitting to that new 1.4 engine the older Marelli ECU from off a 1.2L fiat Punto 75 engine as from looking it up, it all should just bolt on via swapping the intake manifold to the older style.
i want to keep with a 8v engine as they are not interference.. meaning if the cam belt snaps nothing happens. you just put a new belt on and everything works again.. no damage. however all 16v engines are interference engines, if the belt snaps i will be doing a valve train rebuild.
not just that the 8v cylinder head is a lot smaller than the 16v so will not look so out of place, and the 8v gets more torque which i prefer over hp.

yes the marelli system can be adapted to work on 2 or 4 cyl engines as it uses a "wasted spark" ignition system using 2 coils over a distributor or sequential spark system using 4 individual coils. its a nice easy simple system. one coil provides spark to two cylinders. when the spark plug fires in one cylinder on the ignition stroke, another spark plug will fire at the same time on another cylinder on the exhaust stroke thus a wasted spark. to get it to work on a 2cyl engine you just use 2 normal coils over the twin style ones.. the ecu soon learns the fuel mixture from the exhaust gas sensor and adjusts its self for the smaller engine size. the hardest part is getting the crank sensor in the right place.
the marelli system does support OBD1 communication using a 3 pin connector.

I found quite a few Mk1s for sale on Italian Facebook Marketplace so I didn't think they were very rare. Then again, there are tons of Mk2s for sale there too, so there is bound to be a couple Mk1s.

Yes, I have seen the 2wd rear "axle", it is unlike anything I have seen.
I have heard about 2wd Pandas still being very capable offroad, but with 4wd you have the "oh frick, I'm stuck" lever to save you.

Sounds like that could be a cool combo!

Are the FIRE engines interference or non-interference?

I am surprised how much technology was fitted to the later Mk2s!

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions!
-Eli

 

[Dragon Man]

so the FIRE engine came in a few different variants. not only in cylinder capacity but also in valvetrain. as far as i know, all 8 valve FIRE engines were non-interference. the 16 valve variants were interference. its not something that would really concern us panda folk as the FIRE engines that came in the Panda 4x4s were only available in 8 valve. all non interference. in the UK only engine size in the 4x4 pandas were 999cc. however in Europe i think they came with the 1108cc engine and even the later ones came with a 1242cc engine. from what i have seen the one i would go for is the Panda Trekking. though they are not a "Sisley", they did come with the more modern Marelli single point injection 54HP 1108cc engine (giving you a whopping 4 extra horse power over the 50HP 999cc carbed engine). i would say that the fuel injection one is better as i said before, its way way way more waterproof. the panda i had that i engine swapped was almost submerged a few times and the engine never even spluttered. the water was deep enough to kill my head unit it came inside the cabin that far.

the choice is entirely yours though. like i say, my current oldest panda i have is carbed and its never let me down. (apart from when i bolted that BOSCH fuel injection system to it.. guhh)

 

[ItsTooBright]

so the FIRE engine came in a few different variants. not only in cylinder capacity but also in valvetrain. as far as i know, all 8 valve FIRE engines were non-interference. the 16 valve variants were interference. its not something that would really concern us panda folk as the FIRE engines that came in the Panda 4x4s were only available in 8 valve. all non interference. in the UK only engine size in the 4x4 pandas were 999cc. however in Europe i think they came with the 1108cc engine and even the later ones came with a 1242cc engine. from what i have seen the one i would go for is the Panda Trekking. though they are not a "Sisley", they did come with the more modern Marelli single point injection 54HP 1108cc engine (giving you a whopping 4 extra horse power over the 50HP 999cc carbed engine). i would say that the fuel injection one is better as i said before, its way way way more waterproof. the panda i had that i engine swapped was almost submerged a few times and the engine never even spluttered. the water was deep enough to kill my head unit it came inside the cabin that far.

the choice is entirely yours though. like i say, my current oldest panda i have is carbed and its never let me down. (apart from when i bolted that BOSCH fuel injection system to it.. guhh)

I will probably try to go for one with the Marelli system, but that will be overlooked as I most likely will buy whichever one is the best deal.

Also, one last question: Do the twin sunnies leak badly? I have found that many of the Japanese Pandas have them, so I will will probably end up buying one with them.

Waiting 10 more months to buy one is going to be hard I can assure you!

 

[Dragon Man]

we had one back in 2000 that never leaked. however thats over 20 years ago. the twin sunny design i dont think ever leaks.. its when the material gets old and cracks.. thats when it happens. i actually wish i had a twin sunny.. not that i was swap my Talon for one though.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks so much for the in-depth reply, John!
So Mk1s are that mechanically different from Mk2s?

I didn't realize that Sisley was mostly just a cosmetic package, headlight washers sound cool though!

From reading people's builds on here I have noticed that rust is the big problem! Nice to know that they are easy to work on!

Thanks for the tip on the fuel tank!

What is the downside to the BOCH system?

That Magneti Marelli system sounds perfect! I can't believe it worked on a twin cylinder engine! Have you tried it on a single cylinder?

All this information will come in very handy!

I found that Ricambio has a ton of Panda parts, are there any other sites I should check out?

Unfortunately I won't be able to get one for at least 10 more months, when I turn 18, because I don't want the complications of importing it under my parent's name.
Also, I need to get this guy road-worthy first:
View attachment 460986
View attachment 460987
I will be putting this in Member's Motors soon so you guys can see more details.


Thank you! That is encouraging!

Look up Rimmer Bros Lincoln UK. They used to be a major parts stockist.

 

[ItsTooBright]

Look up Rimmer Bros Lincoln UK. They used to be a major parts stockist.

I have heard of Rimmer Bros when looking for Spitfire parts, didn't know they did Fiat!
I couldn't find anything about Rimmer Bros Lincoln, just rimmerbros.com and there is no mention of Fiat on the site.
Could you possibly send a link to what you are talking about?

 

[rmjbn1]

as far as i know, all 8 valve FIRE engines were non-interference

I believe that's true, up until the VVT 1.2 introduced for the 500 in 2007

 

[Didge3]

as far as i know, all 8 valve FIRE engines were non-interference.

I believe that's true, up until the VVT 1.2 introduced for the 500 in 2007

It's also worth noting in addition the 1.4 8v from the Grande Punto onwards (2005) also had VVT and is therefore interference.