Technical Twin Air misfire after oil change ?

[Tropicalmike]

I have just carried out an oil and filter change on a 64 plate twin air 105 at 35000 miles. We have had the car for 7 months. I have now had a couple of issues with a misfire and engine warning light coming on and the Start-stop unavailable showing . However , the first 3 journeys of about 4-5 miles each after the oil change there was no problem . I managed to clear the engine warning light and clear the start-stop light by stopping and re-starting the engine and it has then run OK after 10 seconds of revving it up.

The engine was fine before the oil change but has always had a little stutter in first few seconds on first starting with a cold engine .

It seemed too much of a coincidence that the problem only started after changing the oil and knowing how important the oil is for the Uniair unit.

I have checked with the Multiecuscan and it has logged the faults as below.

I trawled through other forum threads on this topic area for ideas and can confirm the engine has had and 0-30W oil before and again at this oil change after only 5k miles . I have used Miller oil that I have also used in another twin air and it has been fine. I have also carried out the oil change reset in Multiecuscan . But what I haven't done is check the oil filter for the Uniair unit. Can anyone tell me where it is , or a photo please. I think if it was a spark plug / coil pack issue it wouldn't just disappear on a re-start or when the engine is warmed up. The spark plugs have only done 5k miles. But I will swap over the coil pack plugs and see if I can move the fault .
Anyone got any ideas, constructive suggestions

Thanks in advance

 

[Twotone2]

Duplicate post

 

[Twotone2]

Changing The Oil And Oil Filter On A Fiat Panda 0.9 Twin Air (4x4)

When changing the oil and oil filter on a Fiat Panda 0.9 Twin Air, take care when removing the undertray/engine guard as it is quite robust and surprisingly heavy.

www.fiatworkshop.co.uk

 

[varesecrazy]

Thanks,

I only discovered"fiatworkshop" Info the other day

Looks useful

 

[Twotone2]

The second video is good, apparently the engines lose oil pressure.

 

[Danoid]

The second video is good, apparently the engines lose oil pressure.

That’s the one, couldn’t find it

So yeah he removed spark plugs and t17 spark and cranked the engines few times

Put it back then start it up.

OP I’d follow those steps, car was okay before oil job so makes sense this could be your issue. It’s free to check so give it a go and hopefully be all good

 

[Tropicalmike]

Hi Guys
Thanks for all the further suggestions, info links and opinions
in answer to questions put forward and further action taken today :-

• Oil pressure light went out after 5 seconds on first start after oil change and almost goes out instantly on every start since, The engine has always started in 2-3 seconds , it just runs rough mostly now. The first 3 drives ( about 5 miles each ) after the oil change actually had no problems at all.
• Oil Filter is a Bosch and it is fitted correctly with that locating tab piece
• I phoned the local Fiat main dealer parts dept and got them to check that this engine really is EuroVI. Answer : Yes and it requires 0w30 C2.
• The miller oil label quotes the Fiat oil spec number on it, So I am happy with it and have used it on another TA
• I have only had the car for 7 months and did not carry out previous services, The car had an oil change when I bought it and stated it was 0w30 but for sure it was not selenia oil by the colour . I have not checked the plugs but they have clearly been fine for the 3500 miles driven by me. I have ordered two new plugs just to be able to eliminate them. We have 2 TAs so they will get used
• I had seen the Youtube about the change out of a twin air engine , but I recall he just had problems priming the engine with oil and getting the oil pressure light out , hence the prolonged starter cranking with fuel off and plugs out. I agree what he says about oil grades
• I swapped the coil packs over this afternoon , The recorded fault remained on the No.1 cylinder, so not coil packs
• on the 3rd test start today I managed to get the engine running smoothly at about 3000 rpm with no engine warning light . I got the engine up to temperature and then drove it round the block ( 1/2 mile ) without issue. It started again about an hour later and it was OK too . I will try again tomorrow when it is cold,
• I made a couple of enquiries today with Independent Fiat specialists so I know it could be an expensive fix for a new Uniair actuator (£1100-1300+ ), But one did say he had seen this problem before after an oil change, IE , Clean oil dislodges a bit of crud and it some how effects one of the inlet valve actuators especially when cold oil. Unfortunately neither is near me . I will try and phone a few local small garages and see if i can find one who knows anything about TAs ,

Once I have eliminated everything basic and any further ideas from you guys I am tempted to buy a new unit and have a go myself to change it out but I am concerned about lack of info on any adjustments and torque settings . I will have a good look through the fiatworkshop site . but if any one has got any real experience/info on doing the Job I would be very grateful.

Thanks

 

[Tropicalmike]

OP says:
"I crank.. It splutters and I get an Engine MIL"

If it's a Yellow DashWarning

That's probably from the LambdaSensor

Could you get a Code (P****) to confirm/deny this

no code / warning on lambda sensor has shown

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi Guys
Thanks for all the further suggestions, info links and opinions
in answer to questions put forward and further action taken today :-

• Oil pressure light went out after 5 seconds on first start after oil change and almost goes out instantly on every start since, The engine has always started in 2-3 seconds , it just runs rough mostly now. The first 3 drives ( about 5 miles each ) after the oil change actually had no problems at all.
• Oil Filter is a Bosch and it is fitted correctly with that locating tab piece
• I phoned the local Fiat main dealer parts dept and got them to check that this engine really is EuroVI. Answer : Yes and it requires 0w30 C2.
• The miller oil label quotes the Fiat oil spec number on it, So I am happy with it and have used it on another TA
• I have only had the car for 7 months and did not carry out previous services, The car had an oil change when I bought it and stated it was 0w30 but for sure it was not selenia oil by the colour . I have not checked the plugs but they have clearly been fine for the 3500 miles driven by me. I have ordered two new plugs just to be able to eliminate them. We have 2 TAs so they will get used
• I had seen the Youtube about the change out of a twin air engine , but I recall he just had problems priming the engine with oil and getting the oil pressure light out , hence the prolonged starter cranking with fuel off and plugs out. I agree what he says about oil grades
• I swapped the coil packs over this afternoon , The recorded fault remained on the No.1 cylinder, so not coil packs
• on the 3rd test start today I managed to get the engine running smoothly at about 3000 rpm with no engine warning light . I got the engine up to temperature and then drove it round the block ( 1/2 mile ) without issue. It started again about an hour later and it was OK too . I will try again tomorrow when it is cold,
• I made a couple of enquiries today with Independent Fiat specialists so I know it could be an expensive fix for a new Uniair actuator (£1100-1300+ ), But one did say he had seen this problem before after an oil change, IE , Clean oil dislodges a bit of crud and it some how effects one of the inlet valve actuators

Thanks

Great to hear it's been running

Looking forward to an update,

my panda has niggly running issues bought with 11k, now on 35k

I Think it's not reading temperatures well, and messes with it's own Fuelling


Hope it's good both Hot and Cold for you now

 

[Tropicalmike]

Great to hear it's been running

Looking forward to an update,

my panda has niggly running issues bought with 11k, now on 35k

I Think it's not reading temperatures well, and messes with it's own Fuelling


Hope it's good both Hot and Cold for you now

The car is running OK if I give it 2500-3000 rpm on starting from cold for 2 -3 minutes, If i dont, it misfires and the Eng warning light comes on plus start-stop is blocked . Once it is warmish it drives fine , no loss of power i can detect . I have driven it a few times this week with no issues. I have found a couple of facebook groups for TA owners and engines and have DM'd a couple of guys who say they have changed the Uniair themselves asking them for advice especially on torque settings. The engine is not right and I need to do something but I want to get as much info/advice I can first and try avoid of the cost and time of going to a specialist 100+ miles away .

 

[varesecrazy]

That sounds very wise

I am relatively new to FB, so haven't even considered looking there..

My limited experience..

My Panda has had a couple of "random features" since purchase at 10k miles

Initially a stuttering if started half-warm, supplying dealer found no fault

It's Purely a temperature thing.. and lasts 300 metres, then runs perfectly

The other is more serious/concerning

It covers a regular 2 hour trip, often after 1.5 hours it pings the warning light and loses power
In the Winter Zero issue,
Summer it happens almost every trip, and in the same place..!

Happened this week:

Yellow Warning Triangle
StopStart Unavailable and an obvious misfire


This time the OIL Light came on (that's a 1st....)
And lost basically all engine power (no Uniair action..)


I dipped the clutch, turned ignition off and back and Bumped it

Ran OK, next 49 minutes
"ok, but not percect"

This will happen every trip until the Autumn, then fine all winter

I am used to it, but it Pinging the oil light I'd a concern

Traditionally, that means "no oil circulating", but car was still doing @2000 rpm, (40 mph in 5th)

Loss of Uniair pressure maybe..?
As I said, the motor lost everything..
Absolutely NOTHING, JUST COASTING


I will check it over an read codes this morning, but suspect it's the traditional

Random misfire,
annoyingly my MES is elsewhere, but an OIL code Might still be logged if I don't wipe them

 

[d4zzl3r]

Probably won't help much but.....

Replacing the UniAir unit could be a costly mistake if it you end up with the same issue.
Sometimes the answer is staring you in the face but you can't see the wood for the trees.
Something simple, its easy to miss the small stuff.

I have changed the oil and filter on mine (bought new) about 4 or 5 times without issue. Never have i reset anything. So far to date i haven't done anything with the small filter/strainer thing but i plan to on the next oil/filter change (coming up to 50,000 miles).

I always use Selenia, it seems expensive compared to others but its crucial for the correct UniAir operation.

Anyways, good luck and i hope it doesn't cost too much to fix.

 

[varesecrazy]

Probably won't help much but....

I have changed the oil and filter on mine (bought new) about 4 or 5 times without issue. Never have i reset anything. So far to date i haven't done anything with the small filter/strainer thing but i plan to on the next oil/filter change (coming up to 50,000 miles).

I always use Selenia, it seems expensive compared to others but its crucial for the correct UniAir operation.

As I wrote in my GUIDE..

I Couldn't buy Selenia for my 2012 spec, so have worked through Options

That car was Specialist serviced to @40k on Selenia, the remaining 35 with me,
I have NEVER reset anything( as I am trying to make direct comparisons)

The 2013, was on TOTAL oil when we bought it.
Had Selenia at our supplying dealers 1st Service, and I've used Millers since

No change in the way it runs, going from 10k to 40k

Alfa I recently bought is on NAPA..
I have to research this oil,
But it runs acceptably, (don't anticipate it will be as good as my well cared for Punto)

 

[Tropicalmike]

Hi guys , thanks for further comments .
FYI When I spoke to the parts dept at a Fiat main dealer to check about correct oil for my TA and is it a Euro5 or 6 . He said use 0w30 C2 . He didnt keep any 1 or 5 Litre in stock as they have a big drum of it just for the service dept and said any brand would be OK as long as it was 0W30 C2 spec . So I am satisfied with the Millers I have used that also quotes compliant with the Fiat spec. From my own job experience in Marine Engineering and research i have made . It is the viscosity characteristic that is critical for the hydraulic operation in the Uniair. The ECU must modify how much/long it operates the actuators based on the oil temperature it gets (Plus throttle and other sensors of course ) . The viscosity varies with temperature and the ECU has a "look up table" in the software . As oil ages and gets contaminated the viscosity also changes and the running time from the oil change reset is known so it will also modify the actuator signal . . If the oil change reset is used it resets back the viscosity it would expect from new oil. There will be wear in the precision components of the actuator solenoids and pistons over time and this wear will start to effect performance and probably at low oil temperature it is more vulnerable to a bit of sticking . Clearly , old dirty oil will cause more wear. I cant be sure on what oil grade or brand was used in my engine before me. I only have the service book history stamps with dates and mileage that look more or less OK. I have 3 litres of 5W40 oil from a previous 1.2 . I am tempted to put this oil in it and see what happens !! It was the grade on the earlier Euro5 TAs after all. I suspect that was the grade in it before I changed the oil. May be the different viscosity of 5W40 characteristic is more tolerant of a slightly worn actuator and now it has 0W30 again and an oil change reset it has revealed the wear. I'll keep you posted . But I am still looking for advice on DIY change out of a Uniair if anyone has experience, Thanks

 

[varesecrazy]

Alfa I recently bought is on NAPA..
I have to research this oil,
But it runs acceptably, (don't anticipate it will be as good as my well cared for Punto)

Well..what do you know..

Good old Tayna sell the NAPA OIL

The 0W30LS

Doesnt quote FIAT spec, but DOES

PSA 71.2312

which is quoted on the Millers I used in my Panda.. see below image

 

[Robster160]

I don't suppose you had recently filled up with petrol. I had an issue of bad petrol from a BP garage causing a bad miss fire. I don't understand how changing oil and filter could cause that

 

[varesecrazy]

I don't understand how changing oil and filter could cause that

All fuelling is driven by a Module on these,
which uses Oil Pressure and Solenoids

(No Common Rail and Fuel Injectors)

 

[Robster160]

Ah ok. Mines 50 years old so doesn't have that problem