124 Spider (Classic) Trouble

[maggellwin]

Set timing with No 1 cylinder not no.4.
Theres a timing mark on the crank pulley, set at the 10 degree btdc mark, make sure the rotor arm is pointing to the contact for No1 and the points just opening. If you've got petrol a spark and presumably cam belt fitted correctly timed it will start. Sounds like you may have everything 180 degrees out...

 

[bugsymike]

Set timing with No 1 cylinder not no.4.
Theres a timing mark on the crank pulley, set at the 10 degree btdc mark, make sure the rotor arm is pointing to the contact for No1 and the points just opening. If you've got petrol a spark and presumably cam belt fitted correctly timed it will start. Sounds like you may have everything 180 degrees out...

Back to basics often works.
In the 1960s at college we had to time up and get running a petrol engine with no valve or ignition timing marks and chain and distributor off the car.
Yes I did get it going , but was surprised how many just couldn't see the logic on how to fix it.

 

[Brassnadz]

Back to basics often works.

No surprise that i could only put it to tdc @#1 if i DO understand ,,, only fiat throws curveballs w this tdc@#4 bs. This is not basics, its weird.

 

[Brassnadz]

Set timing with No 1 cylinder not no.4.
Theres a timing mark on the crank pulley, set at the 10 degree btdc mark, make sure the rotor arm is pointing to the contact for No1 and the points just opening. If you've got petrol a spark and presumably cam belt fitted correctly timed it will start. Sounds like you may have everything 180 degrees out...

@ maggellwin,

thanx 4 th reply, i did that, set rotor to th #1 distibutor tower with piston risen to th top on th compression stroke. However, i've looked n cannot locate any timing marks by th crankshaft pully. Had it started once @#1tdc. Sounded bad like 1 tooth out on distributor sounds. so i moved distibutor while it was running, now it wont start. So then heard silliness about fiats to have rotor point to #4 tower, n set motor with piston risen to th top on th compression stroke of #4 cyl @ tdc. Your saying this #4 silliness is wrong, right? Because as i said earlier it sounds wrong to align #4 for th firing order of any car.

 

[124BC1]

Fiat's instruction to set the engine to No. 4 piston only applies if the distributor has been removed from the engine and therefore ignition timing has been lost.
When doing this, the valve timing marks have to be aligned with their pointers, the crank pulley tdc mark aligned with the adjacent pointer and then the distributor is inserted so that the rotor is pointing at no.4 segment in the distributor cap.

Both No. 1 and No. 4 pistons are at tdc at the same time, the difference is what the valves on these cylinders are doing. When the valve timing marks are aligned, the valves on no.4 cylinder are closed, no.4 cylinder is at the end of the compression stroke and is about to need a spark, this is why you then insert the distributor with the rotor pointing at no 4 segment instead of the more conventional no. 1 cylinder - this is where I think you are getting confused.

If you want to see what is happening, just remove the cam covers and observe the cam lobes as you rotate the crank. With the valve timing marks aligned, the valves on no. 4 cyl will be closed (cam lobes pointing away from the valves), if you then turn the crank 360*, both no 1& 4 pistons will again be at tdc but the valves on no.1 cyl will now be closed. The cam timing marks will now be 180* out - because the cams turn at 1/2 the crank speed.

Normally, when checking/adjusting the ignition timing, a timing light would be connected to no.1 cyl plug lead (for ease of access, no.4 plug is angled towards the firewall) and the light pointed at the crank pulley with the engine running to check if the crank pulley mark aligns with the 10* mark on the fixed pointer.

TLDR? To fix your current problem re-setting the ignition timing, I'd suggest you align the cam timing marks, remove/re-insert the distributor so that the rotor is pointing at no 4 dist. cap segment, check the plug leads are connected in the right order (dist. cap may be marked?), then check the timing using the crank pulley to fixed pointer marks to set it at 10* btdc.

On the 2000 engine, there should be a fixed pointer attached next to the crank pulley at approx. 10 o'clock position, the pointer looks like this:-
(older engines had 3 lines/marks cast into the timing belt cover at approx. 2 o'clock position)

There's also lots of technical info + how-to videos available, incl. how to check out the ignition system without damaging components @ https://autoricambi.us

 

[bugsymike]

No surprise that i could only put it to tdc @#1 if i DO understand ,,, only fiat throws curveballs w this tdc@#4 bs. This is not basics, its weird.

I agree, when being trained in 1960s, No.1 Cylinder was always nearest front of vehicle, some French cars have No4 where you think No. 1 is and some Honda's that you expect to be turning clockwise are anticlock just to add to the confusion.
Once you know which way the starter is turning the engine, then with spark plugs out and a piston, 1 or 4 is coming up the bore, if you block the plug hole with your finger you will feel it coming up on compression as you turn crank with a socket and bar, just before TDC you can check Rotor arm is pointing to that corresponding plug lead on distributor cap and the 10 degree timing mark at pulley or I used to just see with manual ignition that the contact points were just starting to open. This was good enough for engine to run and then be set accurately using the strobe timing light, followed by a road test as original timing marks were set for good quality 5 star which is sadly no longer available, so if engine "pinking" it can be necessary to retard ignition a bit.
Also if you have the firing order than as you continue to turn the engine with the socket then the next plug lead terminal should align rotor with that cylinder and so on.

 

[Brassnadz]

@ 124BC1
Thank you very much for clearing up th confusion. I really appreciate th effort you put into your Excellent detailed explanation of th Fiat's 124 timing. This information seems crucial to doing it correctly . It does look as if removing Everything from th front of th motor (stupidly designed?/engineered? Timing cover) ! Just to see th timing marks. Th idjiot that designed?/engineered? th Timing cover, man o man, wow. Just needed to add some slots to th bolt holes n make it a 2 piece for ez quick removal. N th color brite plastic Yellow, What th? Now requires angle grinder cut off tool n drill. Modify n move on.
Anyway

Thanx again 124BC1 .
I missed your reply/help th first time here as this forum message had not populated, or im blind or it marked itself as read, or well it just seems to hav been hidden.

 

[124BC1]

@Brassnadz
Normally the timing belt cover would only need to be removed every 36,000 miles when replacing the timing belt. The ignition timing marks were on the timing belt cover on the smaller capacity engines used before the 2000 engine - the 2000 engine had an ignition timing pointer at approx. the 10 o' clock position which should align with the mark on the crankshaft pulley when checking the ignition timing and it should be visible without removing the timing belt cover. Also, if electronic ignition is fitted, the ign. timing shouldn't alter in use.

The person you call an 'idiot' who designed this engine was Aurelio Lampredi, you might check out his name, he most certainly was not an idiot....

 

[Slotman]

Perhaps your getting confused with the term "timing marks" ? The timing marks are visable with out removing anything for timing the engine with it running, the timing marks behind the yellow cover are used for timing belt replacement...or installing the distrubitor, align the mark on the pulley, ( I marked both sides of the pulley on mine with white out) with timing tab...
Things might seem "stupid" until you understand it, then they dont....substitute the word "stupid" with "different".... there's a learning curve with fiats, if you never worked on one, just like with air cooled VWs, or various other makes, I once owned a 2000 audi, and a 2000 BMW at the same time, and there were many differences working on them...

 

[Brassnadz]

Thanx yall 4 ur assist . I will take advice to heart. Mostly frustrated because of different design n chiltons not knowing and thus giving erroneous distributor repair/replace procedures. Even Chilton's repair manual thought timing is set to #1 cylinder . So not just me going, hungh, why no timed fire. Fire yes but incorrectly firing on #1 compression stroke as per most cars ive seen.