General Timing Markers for 20v turbo

[alant]

Does anyone have a copy of diagrams indicating valve timing markers on the timing gear of 2.0 20v turbo eingines. I have just lost the power steering belt on my coupe half of which ended up in the cam cover. This has knocked the timing out of the engine and it requires resetting. Going back to basics and finding TDC does not appeal to me as removing the rocker cover looks a nightmare.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Cheers.
Alan Thomas.

 

[SpunkyM]

Oh dear - a very common problem on the coop I'm afraid. A weak point on the design of the cam belt cover is that the auxiliary belts tends to get caught up in the cam belt when they let go causing the usual damage to the valves (i.e bending them).

If you have managed to get away without the pistons hitting the valves then you will have been very very very very very lucky indeed. Certainly in the 12 or so cases I've have heard of this, all have had valve damage to some degree.

You can probably find the info on the timing marks on Brinks' on-line manual here http://www.fiat-coupe.com/

You need to check the compression on each of the cylinders to ensure everything is ticketyboo.

Hope it's not too bad news mate.

SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[alant]

Thanks for the respones and the link to technical info which I hope will get me further on my quest. Technical info or lack of it is my main problem at the moment, not to mention a timing tool. The engine has the cam cover off and the rocker cover is removed. I fished out quite a bit of belt from the cam area, one bit having passed through the cogs! Having said that I do not think I am looking at valve damage, in fact I don't think the timing has jumped a cog. I managed to track down info on timing markers and from what I can judge the markers look about right at TDC. What I don't have is the timing tool to check the outlet valves. On Monday I am paying a visit to the local Fiat dealer in the hope that they remember an old face from years ago when the storeman there used to do me good deals on old Alfetta parts.

If anyone lives within 50 miles of Swansea and have a timing tool to hire then I would love to hear from them!

In the meantime I am still not getting any spark through the plugs even though I have a hunch the timming is not out. The Cam sensor in the front seems to be in good condition. At the moment I am assuming the crank sensor is situated somewhere in the flywheel area.

My brother-in-law is a BMW technician and recognises some of the Bosch management components but without detailed technical info it might mean towing the car to diagnostic equipment.

I will cerainly try the link you supplied to see whatI can find out ther and I might be able to get my hands on a technical handbook soon.I have also been told that there is a lad in Port Talbot who has just started up servicing Alpha's and Fiat's who might be able to help.

Thanks for the reply mate.
Alan Thomas

Originally posted by SpunkyM
Oh dear - a very common problem on the coop I'm afraid. A weak point on the design of the cam belt cover is that the auxiliary belts tends to get caught up in the cam belt when they let go causing the usual damage to the valves (i.e bending them).

If you have managed to get away without the pistons hitting the valves then you will have been very very very very very lucky indeed. Certainly in the 12 or so cases I've have heard of this, all have had valve damage to some degree.

You can probably find the info on the timing marks on Brinks' on-line manual here http://www.fiat-coupe.com/

You need to check the compression on each of the cylinders to ensure everything is ticketyboo.

Hope it's not too bad news mate.

SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[SpunkyM]

Well if the belt hasn't jumped any teeth then that is great news, but I think the reason you are not getting a spark is because the output from the cam and the crank sensors are not tying up and this is confusing the ECU (the cam sensor is only read during startup).

I'm not exactly sure what kind of timing tool you think you need to check the outlet valves?? I thought that the timing was set by notches or marks on the crank and cam pulleys. Line all these up and I would have thought it would be correct?

Go to the link I gave you, click the on-line manual section and have a look at page 24 of the 20V turbo section. It shows the location and operation on the crank sensor. (pg 23 is the cam sensor).

BTW cam sensor failures are pretty common on the 20VT so after you are 100% confident that your timing is correct then it's worth checking the output of that if you still can't get a spark.



SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[FiatExpert]

There Are no Timing Markers On The CamShaft Pulleys. If there is don't go off them. You need the to take of the rocker top and you need a pair of alignment caps. These go
onto to one of the lobes of each camshaft for perfect alignment. If the Camsahft Pulleys are then loosened they will just spin as they do not have a locater peg/key. The crank is done via removing spark plug no 1 and gettin it at TDC.

 

[polecat]

There are also usually copies of the coupe manual on eBay.

 

[alant]

Thanks to everyone for the interest shown so far on this topic.

I have been away to the Algarve for a few weeks so there has been very little progress with the Coupe. I finally got it booked in with the local Fiat dealer for a management diagnostic check (there was a 14 day waiting list). After having the car a week they finally came up with the phase sensor not working. This surprised me because I have been getting readings from that sensor. So I reminded the dealers that this could be as a result of the timing being out of tolerance.

They ran more checks and confirmed that the timing was out and has probably jumped a tooth. They are now quoting me around £1,000 to reset the timing, they want to book 14 hours for the work! I have asked them if I can hire the alignment caps required to line up the lobes but they have refused.

My next quest is to try and get hold of the tooling even if I have to purchase them, anything will be beter than getting ripped off by the local Fiat dealer.

Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Alan Thomas.

 

[alant]

Some success al last.

I have spoken to a company in Cardiff called Alpha & Yapps (029-207-51323) who have been very cooperative. They have the tooling I require and have agreed to lend it to me for the day. So tonight I'm pulling the coupe out of the fiat dealers and tomorrow I'm off to Cardiff to collect the tooling. At least now I can get the timing right on my vehicle and fire it up. Then it's wait and see time but my gut feeling is that there is no valve damage.

I only hope I'm right.

 

[SpunkyM]

Good luck mate, be sure to let us know how you get on. Fingers crossed for you.

SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[alant]

Great news at last!

Alpha & Yapps in Cardiff came up trumps and lent me the alignment tooling on Wednesday without charge, I left my passport with them as security with 50 euros tucked between the pages. the passport was returned to me that afternoon with the 50 euros still inside. Paul the workshop manager there is a real gentleman!

As for the car well the timing was definetly out on both the inlet and outlet valves, probably a tooth out on both. I checked the compression on all cylinders and everything was in order. It fired up first time and is running smoothly. I've done about 30 miles in the car today and everything is running smoothly. A very lucky escape I think.

The local Fiat/Alfa dealer (Ashmoles of Swansea) were pretty decent as well in the end. When I went to collect the car I met up with Jeff the workshop mamanger who remebered me from years ago when I used to run around in Alfas and he booked the car out with no charge for the diagnostics which was great but I still wish they would have hired me the tooling at least that way they could have made some money and saved me a trip to Cardiff!

The whole job was done in less than 4 hours including cam belt change which makes the 14 hour recommended time of the technical manual absurd!

I'd like to thank everyone who posted advice which was invaluable, particularly the link to technical info available on the internet. I've only had the Coupe for about 2 months, a month of which has been off the road so now I'm hoping to get some time in on the road.
It's been years since I drove a good Italian car so I'm really looking forward to it. I have owmned a number af Alfa's and Lancia's over the years mostly in Italy but this is my first shot at a Fiat. I don't think I'll be disappointed!

 

[SpunkyM]

That really is excellent news Alan, you are very lucky indeed and this is the first case I have heard of which escaped valve damage. Even better, you did it all yourself and saved a packet. Happy Easter [8D]

SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[alant]

Cheers SpunkyM.

I certainly did have a good Easter and put 800 miles on the clock of the Coupe! I travelled from Swansea down to Brighton and then across to Norwich. The engine ran perfectly and the car cruised without any effort all day at 90mph. I had a little fun with a brand new M3 spec 2.8 BMW and the Coupe did me proud! The only criticism I have with the car is driving at night the dipped beam is a bit lacking. The plastic coverings are in good shape and there's plenty of light on full beam I guess it is something I'll have to get used to unless anyone can make any recommendations. I'm back off to the Algarve on the 2/5 and very tempted to drive the Coupe down there. It's a great place to have a car like the Coupe no bloody speed cameras down there! I think probably at the end of the day the car will end up down there anyway just to keep the rust away!

All the best Alan.

 

[SpunkyM]

Ah, headlights - another common complaint!

Assuming the electronis adjusters haven't gone haywire (usualy caused by corrosion on the electical plug in connector on the lamp pods), most people find they are just set too low to give good light distribution on dipped. The answer is to park the car about 20 feet from a wall, set the beam to the lowest setting on the dash adjuster and increase the beam height a tad. To do this, lift the bonnet and look on the underside of the headlap pods for a small white plastic adjuster. Twiddle this and you can adjust the beam height. It's a bit of a pain as of course you have to close the bonnet again to check the adjustment you've made.

I had to do this on my car and the headlamps were so much better afterwards. Still passed the MOT fine as well.

SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[SpunkyM]

This should help...

SpunkyM...
Fiat Coupe 20VT, Bailey DV, K&N panel, PBV @ 1.1bar.

 

[alant]

Cheers SpunkyM

Just returned from the Algarve after spending 3 very enjoyable weeks down there. The miles are really piling on the Coupe now with a number of trips to Gatwick and Bristol clocking up another couple of thousand miles on the coupe. Good cars should be driven not coo'd over outside the house I say! I would agree with you completely regarding the dipped beam alignment, it really is low. Great for oncoming traffic but the road disappears into darkness about 10 ft from the end of the bonnet on the driver side! Thanks for the tech info regarding the adjustment and I will certainly give that a try when I find the time. In the meantime I'm off to Canada for a spell!