CamperVanBeethoven
Member
I've watched a youtube video where I think the mechanic used drill bits, yes.
I got the proper kit for about £17 from ebay.
I got the proper kit for about £17 from ebay.
Technical Timing belt replacement Ducato 2.3 2018
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Technical Timing belt replacement Ducato 2.3 2018
I had a customer who bought a Citroen C8 a few years ago and had dealer servicing throughout, the cambelt failed under their makers recommendation limits and they refused to pay although the same catastophic engine failure in France was honoured.
this guy is not locking the cam's - except the cam wheel..
This is something we all used to do in the past with no problems, however with modern engines using crank and cam sensors along with ECUs and closer tolerances for emissions etc. the argument is that if the cam wheels are slackened along with using locking /setting pins etc. then timing should be more precise once retightened in the exact position.
Most of us would argue that if engine turns over without contact with valves etc. starts and runs fine, then few of us would notice the difference compared with one done to exact manufacturers spec.
I think the slackening of the cams pulley is to cater for very slight differences in belt lenght even though the teeth count is (must be) exactly the same. However if one assumes that the belt stretches a little during its life, the initially fitted new belt will not be exactly the same lenght at the end of its life (potentially 190k km) so the timing would have also changed slightly and I believe that would not affect very much the functioning of the engine.
As I mentioned before I have not done mine yet, but when I do it, I will just be locking in place the crankshaft and the camshaft pulley without slackening it. Only if that does not seem to work properly I will bother to lock the cam shafts as well and then slacken the camshaft pulley.
Again, I believe that the initial assembly line installation is as close to perfection as you can get and it is hard to replicate in a workshop replacement on the vehicle. So I will be keeping a watchful eye on it and wait another year or so, but certainly within the recommended 190k km.
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As I mentioned before I have not done mine yet, but when I do it, I will just be locking in place the crankshaft and the camshaft pulley without slackening it. Only if that does not seem to work properly I will bother to lock the cam shafts as well and then slacken the camshaft pulley.
Again, I believe that the initial assembly line installation is as close to perfection as you can get and it is hard to replicate in a workshop replacement on the vehicle. So I will be keeping a watchful eye on it and wait another year or so, but certainly within the recommended 190k km.
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I'm thinking it's about
I know on some Toyota chain driven engines as they wore they would go into limp mode and throw up errors re the difference between the Cam and crank sensors of the stretched chain, though one could argue that belts may not stretch to the same extent.
Just to resurrect a slightly old thread.....I did the belt on a 2018MY motorhome with the 130 engine yesterday. The reason they recommend loosening the cam pulley is to make it easier to fit the new belt as pulley is then free to rotate which means you can take out the lack between the crank and cam pulleys and that makes it much easier to fit the belt over the tensioner. Needless to say, I didn't do that and removed the timing pins and just fitted the new belt so that the lines on the belt aligned with the marks on the pulleys. Once the belt was in place across the cam pulley, water pump, fuel pump and crank, I put in a tiny bit of tension by rotating the cam pulley anticlockwise slightly which gave enough slack to get the belt over the tensioner on the slack side.
The belt had covered a huge 7139 miles but was six years old (cab built end 2017, coachbuilt in 'ull 2018 and registered Sept 2019) Photos of old belt attached.
Some tips for doing this job:
If your BMI is where it should be you can do this job with all four wheels on the ground. If I was also doing the water pump I'd think about removing the wheel and wheel arch liner.
Remove the OS headlight.
You don't need to move the coolant and brake reservoir bottles and frame as the engine mount can stay in place (you can remove the engine mount with these in place in you needed to).
Loosen the three 18mm head bolts on the engine mounting to allow the engine to drop slightly, I couldn't get the crank pulley off until I had done this as the chassis rail fouled..
The pipe from the coolant reservoir clips to the front of the cam belt cover. Push in the plastic clip and the cover can then be moved towards the chassis rail.
Remove the cover from below. You need to remove the aircon pump and bracket to get enough room. The aircon pump will hang on the flexible hoses but I used a strap to remove the tension and get it out of the way. Once the cover was off I loose fitted the bracket and aircon pump whilst I did the timing belt.
If the cover gets snagged on the way down, check the coolant reservoir pipe clip hasn't got caught on the cover.
Mark up the original belt against the crank and cam pulley marks and compare these to the new belt. I did this with crank and cam pulley timing pins in position. These kits are about £11 and do locate the crank better than a drill bit would. My Gates belt had the marks where they should be (no surprise for Gates products!)
On the new belt I put a tiny paint mark on the edge of the tooth that located on the crank pulley to make refitting in the right place much clearer (see photo).
When I did the 35Nm torque to the belt tensioner, the alignment dot tries to rotate so keep a close eye on it and keep it in the right place with the allen key.
The belt had covered a huge 7139 miles but was six years old (cab built end 2017, coachbuilt in 'ull 2018 and registered Sept 2019) Photos of old belt attached.
Some tips for doing this job:
If your BMI is where it should be you can do this job with all four wheels on the ground. If I was also doing the water pump I'd think about removing the wheel and wheel arch liner.
Remove the OS headlight.
You don't need to move the coolant and brake reservoir bottles and frame as the engine mount can stay in place (you can remove the engine mount with these in place in you needed to).
Loosen the three 18mm head bolts on the engine mounting to allow the engine to drop slightly, I couldn't get the crank pulley off until I had done this as the chassis rail fouled..
The pipe from the coolant reservoir clips to the front of the cam belt cover. Push in the plastic clip and the cover can then be moved towards the chassis rail.
Remove the cover from below. You need to remove the aircon pump and bracket to get enough room. The aircon pump will hang on the flexible hoses but I used a strap to remove the tension and get it out of the way. Once the cover was off I loose fitted the bracket and aircon pump whilst I did the timing belt.
If the cover gets snagged on the way down, check the coolant reservoir pipe clip hasn't got caught on the cover.
Mark up the original belt against the crank and cam pulley marks and compare these to the new belt. I did this with crank and cam pulley timing pins in position. These kits are about £11 and do locate the crank better than a drill bit would. My Gates belt had the marks where they should be (no surprise for Gates products!)
On the new belt I put a tiny paint mark on the edge of the tooth that located on the crank pulley to make refitting in the right place much clearer (see photo).
When I did the 35Nm torque to the belt tensioner, the alignment dot tries to rotate so keep a close eye on it and keep it in the right place with the allen key.
Attachments
Hi RS Pilot. Thanks for the tips and all the photos.
That 2017 belt in the photos looks like new to me! Mine is also a 2017 and I am thinking that the Fiat 5 years recommended replacement is way too early. After looking at your removed belt, would you still do the job?
Mind you mine has 120000km so I may do it next year.
A few questions if you don't mind.
1)Most of the job is done from underneath, so is it really worth removing the OS headlight?
2)Loosen the engine mounting, do you need to support the engine from below with a jack? I have heard people just leverage the engine a bit with a pry bar just to remove the crank pulley.
3)Did you replace accessory belt & tensioner and A/C belt as well?
4)Did you use the special tool for the A/C stretch belt or just put it on the pulley before retightening the A/C compressor?
Thank you!
That 2017 belt in the photos looks like new to me! Mine is also a 2017 and I am thinking that the Fiat 5 years recommended replacement is way too early. After looking at your removed belt, would you still do the job?
Mind you mine has 120000km so I may do it next year.
A few questions if you don't mind.
1)Most of the job is done from underneath, so is it really worth removing the OS headlight?
2)Loosen the engine mounting, do you need to support the engine from below with a jack? I have heard people just leverage the engine a bit with a pry bar just to remove the crank pulley.
3)Did you replace accessory belt & tensioner and A/C belt as well?
4)Did you use the special tool for the A/C stretch belt or just put it on the pulley before retightening the A/C compressor?
Thank you!
Hi, removing the headlight is 2 minutes' work and gives you so much more visibility and easier access so definitely do that. For the engine mounting I took the load on a trolley jack and then slackened eacb bolt off about 8mm and then lowered the jack and removed it. As you're working underneath it's just a little easier to move around when the jack isn't there. Once the belt was done I lifted the engine using the trolley jack and then tightened the bolts back up again. Another advantage of lowering just those few mm was that I could then get a socket and 1/2" ratchet onto the crank bolt - prior to that I'd been using a ring spanner. I refitted the original auxiliary belts but what I did notice is that they retained their shape after removal so will need changing soon as the rubber is hardening up a bit. For the stretch belt I do have a tool for removal and refitting but it fouled the chassis leg so I just put a bit off side loading on the belt and rotated the engine to get it off. Getting it back on was really easy - fitted fully to the aircon pulley and to the bottom of the crank pulley and just rotated the engine - it went straight on.
From the age and mileage on yours I'd be getting the belt changed sooner rather than later. Mine looked pretty good but the mileage was very low. The belt also appeared to have hardened up a bit so I had no issues replacing it. I only did the belt so it only set me back £40 for the belt and £11 for the timing pins. The bearings for the idler, tensioner and water pump all felt great so I have no worries about those.
Just be careful about the age of the belt on yours as mine was already 2 years old when it was first registered so was over 6 years old when I replaced it.
Resurrecting this old thread as I did my timing belt.
Warning for people doing it, the timing white lines on some belts are wrong, as CamperVanBeethoven mentioned above.
Even the old original Fiat belt has the wrong white line marking on it.
Teeth count between my marking done with the old belt in place and locks on crankshaft and camshaft in, is 59 teeth between crankshaft mark and camshaft mark.
Teeth count on the white lines still visible on the original Fiat belt just removed is 62 teeth.
Warning for people doing it, the timing white lines on some belts are wrong, as CamperVanBeethoven mentioned above.
Even the old original Fiat belt has the wrong white line marking on it.
Teeth count between my marking done with the old belt in place and locks on crankshaft and camshaft in, is 59 teeth between crankshaft mark and camshaft mark.
Teeth count on the white lines still visible on the original Fiat belt just removed is 62 teeth.
Good point , although strangely enough I have never used the marks on belts, just followed my AutoData Timing Belt book details on all vehicles.
I do check length and teeth, plus same tooth mesh in gears.
Apart from on some vehicles I have come across modified pulley diameters resulting in the need for longer or shorter belts.
From what I have read everyone agrees that you can't get the crank pulley off without moving the engine, but some say you don't need to lower the engine on later models, because you can just prize it sideways with a crowbar.
I would be a bit concerned about leaving the engine supported on my hydraulic trolley jack as its very old so the jack could be sinking due to fluid getting past the seals. I would prefer a mechanical scissor jack.
I would be a bit concerned about leaving the engine supported on my hydraulic trolley jack as its very old so the jack could be sinking due to fluid getting past the seals. I would prefer a mechanical scissor jack.
Yes , what ever you have to do it must be securely supported.
Nothing worse than watching a jack creep down and having to pump it up at the same time as making the job safe.
Maybe if nothing else some concrete blocks with a rubber pad or similar against the sump once you have got it where you want it.
I never trust jacks or hydraulic cranes to stay in position. Even if changing a wheel at the road side with chocked wheels etc. I always slacken the wheel nuts and then slide the spare wheel under the edge of the car until ready to swap over , so minimum time in unsafe position.
I've had a lot of plywood offcuts left over from DIY jobs so cut them into squares, or progressively shorter rectangles for ramps, layer and screw one on top of the other to make solid axle stands and ramps for my van. I would rather trust them than anything else when I get under it.
I just changed my timing belt today. Reluctantly, as I thought it was still good. But I had a ticking noise from that area, so I decided to do it. I had already bought the kit a year or so ago.
2017 Ducato (so almost 8 years old original belt), almost 130,000km.
I was able to push the engine a little by hand and slide the crank pulley up and then out. It wouldn't slide down, not enough clearance. I didn't touch the engine mounts, or the headlight, the wheels, the wheel inner covers,...
I did not remove any other parts at all, other than the accessory belt idler pulley. The timing belt plastic cover could not come out otherwise.
The "old" belt looks perfect. Rubber still very good. No cracking at all. No wear on the teeth. Not much dust in the timing belt enclosure.
The old tensioner and idler also look good. No play, smooth spinning bearings.
I didn't change the water pump because it has no play, smooth spinning, no leaks.
I did the job myself with the van on the ground, on its wheels.
It took me a bit less than 3 hours to do.
Yes, but this timing belt kit is sold specifically for the Ducato 2.3 engine. Why put timing marks on the belt if they are not right or if the same belt is used on different engines with different timing marks.
It just confuses people. May as well not have any timing lines at all so everyone knows they have to mark the old belt themselves before removing it and transfer the marks to the new one.
CamperVanBeethoven
Member
Well said. It causes a lot of worry and wasted time trying to figure out why the damn marks won't line up too!
CamperVanBeethoven
Member
Glad you've confirmed the problem is real!
It concerned me too. Then luckily the old original belt on the engine also had timing lines and they were wrong, just like the new belt.Glad you've confirmed the problem is real!
Counting the teeth between my marks on crankshaft pulley and camshaft pulley, there are 59 teeth.
Between the white lines timing marks on the belts (both new and old) there are 62 teeth.
So, never trust the timing marks. Just do your own marks on the old belt before removal and transfer them on the new one matching the teeth.
