Technical Timing belt replacement Ducato 2.3 2018

[repairer]

Hi,

My Motorhome Ducato 2.3 150 multijet is due a timing belt change (5 years)

I have done a few other vehicles in the past but not a Ducato, reading the E learn procedure it advises removing/loosening the cam pulley.

I am trying to understand why this is necessary, I would have though locking the camshafts with the two locking pins and locking the Cam sprocket with pin was only required on top end of engine.

Surely the cam sprocket fit of a "key" with very little movement, or have I got this wrong?

Has anyone carried out this job, I cannot get my round why you would want to undo the cam sprocket.

Any help/feedback appreciated.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

My Motorhome Ducato 2.3 150 multijet is due a timing belt change (5 years)

I have done a few other vehicles in the past but not a Ducato, reading the E learn procedure it advises removing/loosening the cam pulley.

I am trying to understand why this is necessary, I would have though locking the camshafts with the two locking pins and locking the Cam sprocket with pin was only required on top end of engine.

Surely the cam sprocket fit of a "key" with very little movement, or have I got this wrong?

Has anyone carried out this job, I cannot get my round why you would want to undo the cam sprocket.

Any help/feedback appreciated.

I assume as with most modern engines it is "freewheeling " once slack thereby allowing more precise timing than just dragging to the next tooth on the pulley as we always used to do on older engines. This being the case observing any requirements for new bolts or nuts and specific torque settings is highly critical.
I did post an Auto Data of the 2011 2.3 Ducato timing details recently, but being retired the last one of those I did was on a 2.8 Sofim engine in an Iveco (much easier)

 

[repairer]

I assume as with most modern engines it is "freewheeling " once slack thereby allowing more precise timing than just dragging to the next tooth on the pulley as we always used to do on older engines. This being the case observing any requirements for new bolts or nuts and specific torque settings is highly critical.
I did post an Auto Data of the 2011 2.3 Ducato timing details recently, but being retired the last one of those I did was on a 2.8 Sofim engine in an Iveco (much easier)

Hi many thanks, it is also the conclusion I came to after reading E Learn again, it does mention the following "This operation allows the timing belt to bed in on the pulley"

Missed that bit.

many thanks

 

[Reavergy]

Did you end up replacing the timing belt?
Did you loosen the cam pulley?
I watched a few YouTube videos and nobody loosened it. They just locked the cam pulley and the crankshaft. They also marked referenced the old belt top and bottom and transferred the marks on the new one.
Cheers

 

[repairer]

Did you end up replacing the timing belt?
Did you loosen the cam pulley?
I watched a few YouTube videos and nobody loosened it. They just locked the cam pulley and the crankshaft. They also marked referenced the old belt top and bottom and transferred the marks on the new one.
Cheers

Hi

I have not carried out the job yet, looking at videos if I do need to loosen belt pulley I would need help with someone holding the counter bar, pulley bolt is torqued to 130Nm.

my plan was to follow other video’s and just fit belt without loosening pulley and see if marks line up when engine turned by hand, and if so leave loosening pulley.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

In case it's of interest - I didn't remove the engine mount as specified - yet had no problems with it getting in the way.
I also tried, but couldn't find any use in slackening the pulley.
I used a Continental kit (inc. pulleys and water pump - and the timing marks on the belt are in the wrong place!
They a lways pulled the belt one notch out. In the end I aligned one and ignored the other. Perfect.

 

[Reavergy]

It is worrying that the marks on the new belt were wrong.
I remember reading of someone marking the old belt on the teeth of the camshaft and crankshaft before removing it. Then putting the old belt on top of the old belt before installing it and transferring the marks on the teeth of the new belt (actually counting the teeth as well) to confirm that the marks were correct.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

It is worrying that the marks on the new belt were wrong.
I remember reading of someone marking the old belt on the teeth of the camshaft and crankshaft before removing it. Then putting the old belt on top of the old belt before installing it and transferring the marks on the teeth of the new belt (actually counting the teeth as well) to confirm that the marks were correct.

I did count the teeth - as it worried me! But it was literally impossible to fit satisfactorily as marked - but perfectly easy when ignoring the bottom mark.
I can only assume the belt was marked for a slightly different model and mislabelled.
Note: the photo was taken before refitting to illustrate the problem.

 

[Reavergy]

Sorry my post should have said "putting the old belt in top of the new belt".
Yes I think counting the teeth is very good idea to avoid any mistake.
So were you able to install the new belt with both the camshaft and crankshaft locked in position by the pins?

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Sorry my post should have said "putting the old belt in top of the new belt".
Yes I think counting the teeth is very good idea to avoid any mistake.
So were you able to install the new belt with both the camshaft and crankshaft locked in position by the pins?

Correct - pulley, cams and crank all locked in position.
If I did that with both the belt marks also aligned (with great difficulty) - the tension from one side of the belt sprang it out of time when the pins were removed (as shown in my photo)

 

[Reavergy]

I suppose that is why they recommend loosening the camshaft pulley. That way the cams and the crankshaft (which is what matters) are locked in the right position where they are supposed to be for correct timing. Then the camshaft pulley is tightened to suit that position. That would negate any minor differences in belt lenght or stretching. The difference in timing would be minor and probably not noticeable, but nevertheless there would be a minor difference as I guess you would probably not be able to lock the cams and the crankshaft in the correct position now that you have completed the job.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I suppose that is why they recommend loosening the camshaft pulley. That way the cams and the crankshaft (which is what matters) are locked in the right position where they are supposed to be for correct timing. Then the camshaft pulley is tightened to suit that position. That would negate any minor differences in belt lenght or stretching. The difference in timing would be minor and probably not noticeable, but nevertheless there would be a minor difference as I guess you would probably not be able to lock the cams and the crankshaft in the correct position now that you have completed the job.

I also tried that. It made no difference.
After wasting an hour or two on it - the only solution was ignoring the lower belt mark - the belt then fitted comfortably, the tools all aligned perfectly, the pulleys stayed aligned when the pins were removed and the engine ran perfectly.

 

[Reavergy]

Thanks, it does make sense and I think I will do the same when I do mine.
Not in a hurry to do it though. Mine is a 2017 with 120000km.
Can I ask you how old and how many km on yours? And what did the old belt look like? And the tensioner?
I read some people have changed the belt after 10 years without having problems. I wonder if Fiat is overly cautious recommending replacement at 5 years.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I suppose that is why they recommend loosening the camshaft pulley. That way the cams and the crankshaft (which is what matters) are locked in the right position where they are supposed to be for correct timing. Then the camshaft pulley is tightened to suit that position. That would negate any minor differences in belt lenght or stretching. The difference in timing would be minor and probably not noticeable, but nevertheless there would be a minor difference as I guess you would probably not be able to lock the cams and the crankshaft in the correct position now that you have completed the job.

I also tried that. It made no difference.
After wasting an hour two on this - the only solution was ignoring the lower belt mark - the belt then fitted comfortably, the tools all aligned perfectly and the engine ran perfectly.

Thanks, it does make sense and I think I will do the same when I do mine.
Not in a hurry to do it though. Mine is a 2017 with 120000km.
Can I ask you how old and how many km on yours? And what did the old belt look like? And the tensioner?
I read some people have changed the belt after 10 years without having problems. I wonder if Fiat is overly cautious recommending replacement at 5 years.

Oh, Lordy - I'll never push timing belt replacement: my gf bought an MGF that was due a belt that same month. GF had time off work 3 weeks later so I ordered the parts to do it then.
2 weeks later it snapped and destroyed the engine...
My van was 170 000 miles when I did my belt (+ pulleys and water pump - if one of those fail it will wreck the belt and engine too.) The old belt looked fine, but - every 5 years, stick to it, belts are age-critical.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Snapped belt = scrap engine!

 

[theoneandonly]

I once had a belt go 6 months and 10,000miles before it was due. passat . I was doubting if I should wait 5 yrs for my Ducato. Had it done last week. Registered March 2018.

 

[CraigAR]

I once had a belt go 6 months and 10,000miles before it was due. passat . I was doubting if I should wait 5 yrs for my Ducato. Had it done last week. Registered March 2018.

I just bought my van and it has just had its Cambelt done at 60000 and 6 years, The Guy I bought it from must of had balls of Steel

 

[Reavergy]

Fiat manual says 192,000km or 5 years. Whichever comes first.
I had a look at my belt by unbolting the plastic cover without removing it, and it looks in perfect condition. All round. No cracks or any damage at all.
I am sure that if Fiat says 5 years it can probably last double that, but they cover themselves from liability.
Also I think that an OEM belt installed to perfection in a production line with all the state of the art tools and by a technician that does only that job all day every day has to have a lifespan far superior to an aftermarket one installed in the engine bay, with very limited and difficult access, with the available tools and by a person that has never installed one before or may have installed one 6 months ago.
On the other hand if it fails the possible damage to the engine is catastrophic!

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Fiat manual says 192,000km or 5 years. Whichever comes first.
I had a look at my belt by unbolting the plastic cover without removing it, and it looks in perfect condition. All round. No cracks or any damage at all.
I am sure that if Fiat says 5 years it can probably last double that, but they cover themselves from liability.
Also I think that an OEM belt installed to perfection in a production line with all the state of the art tools and by a technician that does only that job all day every day has to have a lifespan far superior to an aftermarket one installed in the engine bay, with very limited and difficult access, with the available tools and by a person that has never installed one before or may have installed one 6 months ago.
On the other hand if it fails the possible damage to the engine is catastrophic!

"If it fails" the damage is guaranteed to be catastrophic - thousands of pounds inc. labour.
Belts are easy to fit correctly - there is a built in tensioner - so the idea that a factory one is 'far better' holds no water to me.
I also have a friend who pushed the belt life on his Alfa (slightly) - that was the end of his Alfa.
I'd also say that a visual check on belt condition probably tells you nothing about its material strength.
Ask some other forum members and see what they think.

 

[ltz]

Great thread - I'm about to do this on a 201x 7500km engine f1agl411d that was put in to my car recently. will try to clean the high pressure diesel pump filter so will do the belt and water pump at the same time.

Simple question - I will reasonably be checking the two cam alignment holes and the cam shaft alignment a bunch of times. But do I need the special toolkit or will various assortment of drillbits be enough as I can see in several videos? not sure I have time to waft for a engine locking pin kit to arrive. It looks fairly straight forward with drillbits (or worst case I need to use the lathe )