Technical Stewart S

[Stewart squires]

Hi. Can anybody help. My 2.3 ducato van will start in frosty weather like we had a few weeks ago, but won't start in the milder weather now. The diagnostic machine said it is timing related. I have replaced the cam sensor, and the crankshaft sensor but it's not either of them. Someone on the forum mentioned a glow plug relay which it could be I suppose because the van will start when it's really cold and the glow plug light stays on longer. Has anybody had the same problem? Help would be much appreciated.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi. Can anybody help. My 2.3 ducato van.. The diagnostic machine said it is timing related. I have replaced the cam sensor, and the crankshaft sensor but it's not either of them.
Someone mentioned a glow plug relay which it could be I suppose

Hi Stewart

How would a code say 'timing' when its a glow plug circuit error?


There are several glow circuit error codes..

What code did you see?


Whats the history with the van..
No major work since last winter?

Being mis.timed recently would be a possibilty.. the frozen pulley issue maybe?

Do tell us more

Charlie

 

[Stewart squires]

Hi Charlie. Thanks for your reply. Funilly enough a few days ago we had a frost and it started straight up. The question is, why would an engine start up perfect in the cold weather but not when it's warm. I have to say it doesn't sound like a timing problem. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi Charlie. Thanks for your reply. Funilly enough a few days ago we had a frost and it started straight up. The question is, why would an engine start up perfect in the cold weather but not when it's warm. I have to say it doesn't sound like a timing problem. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

How many miles has engine covered?
What code did diagnostic machine read from engine ecu?

 

[Stewart squires]

Engine has covered just 100k and runs as sweet as a nut. Very reliable van before this problem. Not sure what the code number was, the mechanic didn't tell me, he just said it indicated a timing problem which just seems weird to me. Don't know what to try next. Any ideas? Thanks for the reply.

 

[varesecrazy]

Why not put a meter on a glowplug power lead.. see if its not warming them..

Definitely getting the keycode light working properly..?

Once fuel pump has run for a few minutes..
See if it stops priming.


Unfortunately..
Getting access to a decent diagnostic system ..like MES.. will save A LOT of guesswork

You can scan for fault codes

Check ECU feedback

Read fuel rail pressures

Independently drive the glow relay.. fuel tanks lift pump.. etc

 

[cris1117]

Hi. Is it difficult to start in the warm weather or not start at all, does it crank at a good speed.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Scan with MES has got to be a good idea. But, in the absence of access to that it might be interesting to see if it will fire up and settle down to run with a "slug" of Easy Start? I'm not a great advocate for this product but a "one off" will be of little consequence and will help greatly to eliminate some of the possibilities?

Like cris above I'm wondering if it cranks well? but I suppose if it doesn't crank well at warmer temps it's very unlikely it's going to start when colder? I ask because a fast crank on a diesel can make a heluva difference to starting.

 

[Stewart squires]

New battery cranks it over really well. Glow plug meter seems pointless as it starts first time in cold weather so the plugs must be warming it. Difference is, on a cold day, the glow plug light stays on longer and then it starts no problem. Maybe the Mes is the way to go except I will have to wait for a frost before it will start for me to get it to a garage.Will try easy start but don't Like using it. It's like a drug to a junkie. Thanks everybody for the replies.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I completely agree about the easy start and I only suggested it because if this kicks it into life immediately it's highly likely that the Glow plugs aren't being activated when it's not really cold? A single use like this on an engine in good order is unlikely to do any harm, it's on old worn engines where carbon build up around ring lands and piston crowns is doing a lot of sealing that you'll get the problems.

Most modern diesels deploy glow plugs at every start regardless of temperature because they keep them glowing for some time after starting to reduce smoke emissions when the engine is cold and improve cold driveability. Many older designs only keep them glowing when an engine start is being attempted and kill them as soon as the engine fires up. My knowledge of our Fiat Diesels is not very specific but it occurs to me that if there is something out of spec with the air temperature monitoring the ECU may only be "kicking" the plugs into action at very cold outside temperatures? If she kicks off immediately with the Easy Start when the ambient is not all that cold and settles down to run normally I'd take a look at what the ECU "thinks" the outside/intake air temperature actually is? MES is ideal for this.

Do you have a multimeter, or even just a test bulb? Link it between one of the glow plug terminals and earth to see if current is being supplied to the plugs? What diagnostic gear originally gave you those engine codes? I use MES on our Fiat stuff but I've seen posts from people using more generic equipment which has thrown up some real "red herrings"?

Please do keep us updated when you find out what's wrong, I can't wait to know.

 

[Stewart squires]

Thanks very much for your knowledge, I'll keep you informed how I get on.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi Stewart

When you start a Diesel engine, the fuel/air charge temperature is raised rapidly due to the compression on the compression stroke. On the other hand heat is lost to the cylinder walls. So it's a race to get the charge temperature high enough for the fuel to burn. If you have any or all of mistiming, slow cranking, poor compression and cold cylinder walls the race is lost and it won't start. That's where glow plugs come in to give a helping hand, and get the charge temperature higher. If it's only a case of low temperatures, with the timing, cranking speed and compression OK, the glow plugs shouldn't be needed unless its below freezing.

I have a suspicion that your engine has some underlying problem causing a hard start which the glow plugs are masking. If the weather is warm enough (+10 deg C from memory) the glow plugs aren't activated unless you have a fairly recent van, and that shows up your problem.

It does sound as though the glow plug system is working as designed. Even so, if you do want to investigate, the glow plug controller is bolted to the inner wheel arch on the passenger side (RHD) behind the headlight.