Sheriffs of Nottingham

[Caravadossi]

Unfair cop
I wrote to Nottingham police and asked if they treated motorists and real criminals equally. The reply? “The vast majority of the public never actually has any contact with the police. Those that do, we endeavour to treat fairly.” In response to a subsequent Freedom of Information request, however, Nottingham police told me that 4,396 real criminals (burglars, shoplifters, drug dealers etc) were let off with police cautions in 2010. Only six motorists received cautions, but all others committing motoring offences (no matter how minor) were prosecuted. This seems neither fair nor consistent. Drivers seldom set out to break traffic laws deliberately, but crimes such as burglary are almost always premeditated. GJ Gateshead

That’s a fair point, but police throughout the world chase soft targets. HJ

Telegraph/motoring pM6/7 2012/03/31

 

[middo85]

The vast majority of motoring offences are not criminal offences, so are not suitable to be dealt with by cautions.

Minor RTA offences are usually dealt with by fixed penalty or the driver being reported for summons, in the later case it is the justice system which is responsible for deciding on prosecutions, not the police.

Don't just believe all the anti police media stories being pushed at the moment

 

[sludgeguts]

Fair / consistent treatment? Hmmm.
My son has an ageing car - I specifically bought this for him so he could get some real 'hands on' experience & an appreciation of the machine he will be thrashing. He was replacing the HG, reseating valves & generally giving the engine a good looking over. Later on, that evening, a neighbour came over to complain about all the noise he had been making including extremely loud music & loads of revving engines. - I was home early from work and all was quiet after 4pm .
I told her that she should have come over whilst he was making the racket if she felt so strongly & as the noise was during the day whilst I was out, there was little I could do now - especially as he had gone out for the evening.
We later get a visit from plod who, basically, read me the riot act.
I set up a spare dashcam in the house to see just what noise son is making whilst I'm not there & a few days later I happen to catch a police transit parked across the road - it was there over 2 hours & when the guy left, he was very friendly with them, hugging her & shaking his hand - so I figure that our visit was obviously a favour for a mate. I put in an official complaint as best I could (the website has little or no contact info aside from the emergency and non-emergency phone #) and a few days later I got another visit. This time I was assured that this was not a mate doing a favour & an official report of the visit existed - I asked if the report included details such as car reg, our names etc. surprise, surprise, no names or anything like.
Now.

A very elderly friend has had problems with a noisy teenager next door - loud music day & night. the police weren't interested. they told her to contact the council & the advice was to record each incident & keep a diary.
Same friend also had problems with a couple of blokes sleeping in her shed - they scaled a 6' fence (only way in is through the house), broke the lock on her shed & even smashed the PIR security light. they even left a jacket behind.
She phoned the police when she discovered the mess the next morning & they told her there was nothing they could do.

She's 80-odd, partially sighted & lives alone.

When I look around the internet regarding noise nuisance etc, all the advice says to ring the council, record the noise if possible and keep a log. The bit of advice on the police website says more or less the same - it also says they won't intervene unless they witness the nuisance.


We later get another visit from 2 officers - another complaint, this time about loads of car doors slamming, revving engines & loud music - about 90 minutes earlier. Just at the same time as my OH was leaving. Son & his GF got into her car (Fiesta diesel (so hardly noisy exhaust)) & drove off then OH drove off.
I showed the video footage & asked if they considered that noise to be unnecessary. I was given some old pony about the force taking harassment & nuisance more seriously since some woman up north killed herself after making dozens of complaints & the police doing nothing. Here we have a lad doing a bit of work on his car - in the middle of the day, making a bit of noise for a couple of hours tops - a one-off, then a typical event of people getting in their cars and driving off.
We also asked why there was only one complaint when at least 5 of our neighbours are elderly- so at home all day, and our immediate neighbour is at home all day looking after her newborn grandchild (surely extreme noise would bother them?) and we have known these neighbours for upwards of 10 years, not one of them would be scared to tell son to turn it down! We invited said officer to go next door & ask her if she had any problems with noise (If anything, we should be doing the complaining as the kid seems to scream night & day!).

I used to have a lot of respect for the police, I appreciate that they have a difficult job to do but this sort of inequality just gets my gander. They tell you they most certainly do not do favours for mates & yet ONE complaint gets immediate response !!! come on.

 

[middo85]

Sludgeguts,

It is difficult to comment on individual cases without knowing all the details however what mention about 'given some old pony about the force taking harassment & nuisance more seriously since some woman up north killed herself after making dozens of complaints & the police doing nothing' is true, due to the bad press the police got after the Pilkington case the bosses do tend to go way over the top about ASB reports and demand 'positive action' over what most people would consider minor or non existant problems

 

[sludgeguts]

Sludgeguts,

It is difficult to comment on individual cases without knowing all the details however what mention about 'given some old pony about the force taking harassment & nuisance more seriously since some woman up north killed herself after making dozens of complaints & the police doing nothing' is true, due to the bad press the police got after the Pilkington case the bosses do tend to go way over the top about ASB reports and demand 'positive action' over what most people would consider minor or non existant problems

Yes, but a few points to note - 1> they were round like a shot after just 1 complaint and back round like a shot after a second complaint.
2> The old lady's complaint was just as valid yet completely ignored as not being a police matter (as was her second complaint).
3> they took no details from us
4> there are no other complainants & they didn't even bother asking other neighbours - I have asked a few if they have had problems with son's car being noisy.
5> there are other neighbours who seem to make far more noise, every Saturday and sunday morning they get back around 3am & have to make lots of noise & slamming taxi doors (got this on video) and yet there has been no police visits to their house (according to my video).

 

[Dominion]

Aren't complaints of noise nuisance generally dealt with by local PCSOs? We were having problems with the people in the house directly across from us - the parents would go out every friday and saturday night leaving the teenage daughter to invite around 50 mates round. Each time we had loud music, cars revving, doors slamming, shouting/swearing/squealing in the street, fighting between groups of youths and empty cans and bottles flung all over the road and neighbours gardens (including mine). This would go on until around 4-5am. I spoke to the girl's parents, I spoke to the girl herself whilst it was happening, and I very nearly lost it with some hero in a saxo who thought it would be a great idea to lean on his horn at 3am waking up both my kids - each time I spoke to anyone about this, all I got was 'sorry', but nothing changed.
After speaking to a group of neighbours who were as pissed off as me, it was decided that next time we would all bombard the police with complaints (a few of us had already called the police just to be given the standard 'call the council/env health' reply.
In the end, after 18 phone calls, we had 2 PCSOs turn up, and to their credit, they tried their best but the kids basically took the **** because there were so many of them.
The problem only subsided when the young lass went off to uni, but we still get the occasional flare-up in the holidays.
So, based on my (admittedly limited) experience, the reaction of the police in Mr Sludge's story does seem very extreme and I'm not sure such overt familiarity with the women making the complaint is at all professional behaviour, and it definitely does suggest that the police officer was doing a favour for a friend.

 

[middo85]

Actually the police have no powers in relation to noise nuisance, it falls under council environmental health remits.

That said it often is accompanied by other ASB so you are correct it is often PCSO's who will attend.

From what he has posted it seems Sludgeguts has received inconsistent treatment but I wouldn't want to criticise as I don't know all the facts.

 

[sludgeguts]

a few of us had already called the police just to be given the standard 'call the council/env health' reply.

I'm not sure such overt familiarity with the women making the complaint is at all professional behaviour, and it definitely does suggest that the police officer was doing a favour for a friend.

Exactly. Everyone I have spoken to about this all tell a similar story, whenever they have made a complaint about noisy neighbours etc, they always get referred on to the council. complaint about noisy vehicles & "sorry, we can't spare anyone".
I notice from my video footage that the van has been parked there a couple of times since, so obviously a friend on the force.

Whilst I appreciate that the police need to take action over cases of harassment, a one-off event should not warrant two officers knocking on my door & to use the pilkington case as a reason for their immediate response is just laughable, this was not a case of harassment, any engine revving or music playing was not directed at her ( I imagine they will be extremely busy this coming summer as loads of young lads pop their bonnets to give their motors a little tune up!)

 

[Caravadossi]

I’d put in a complaint (anxiety & distress) to the police – this will jack-up the matter to a higher rank, & disclose whether the van men are actually authorised to be there … or are on some corrupt frolic-of-their-own.

Normally any dispute between neighbours & a copper will quickly make Olympic Gold Medal efforts to become a tiny speck on the horizon. Clearly there’s the need for a hard look at this pair.

A one-off event isn’t sufficient – that might explain the continuing attention. The fact that the noise nuisance isn’t common to all residents will be fatal to any allegation of `public nuisance.’ The fact that the noise nuisance only affects one neighbour (& not a few) doesn’t make a good case for `private nuisance’ - & could support the counter-view that the solo neighbour is `over-sensitive.’ Looks like they’re hanging around in anticipation of `finding’ more evidence.


My first car was a Mini. At home I parked on the grass margin between pavement & road - as was common practice for some 60 households. Knock-on-door. Pc opens exchange with “Are you the lad that’s causing all the trouble? Apparently, after he’d heard the case for the prosecution from a neighbour over a few sherries – I’d been found guilty of briefly driving with my near-side wheels on the pavement to get round the telegraph pole outside her place. To make matters worse – no other similar complaint had been made against any other driver. In his view, he’d only received a complaint against me - & consequently it didn’t affect anyone else in the road. I put it to the Pc – did he want to find himself on the BBC News or ITN News? He took steps … big ones, & was never seen again.

There is a Fiona Pilkington on every housing estate in the UK. Most faced with that style of constant harassment never achieve any prominence as they simply die off quietly with no questions raised. The spotlight only fell on Leics Police because of her suicide.

120403

 

[sludgeguts]

The officer who came to deal with my grievance didn't dwell at all on the van parked up for well over 2 hours, even though I mentioned it a few times face to face.
I can understand that a marked unit might be sat outside a house for a short while if on an officail visit or taking refs - but well over 2 hours?
I also wonder if my concerns over lack of details in the report might have quietened things a bit as well.

i wonder if I should get son's moped out of the garage & do a bit of maintenance work on it one nice sunny day, after all, petrol prices getting very expensive now so need to look at cheaper transport & the moped has been laid up for almost half a year :devil:

 

[The Beard]

I appreciate Caravadossi's point vis-a-vis motoring convictions and Police Cautions. What Middo says is essentially correct as cautions are not issued for motoring offences and perhaps we need to consider why the Caution was introduced by the last Labour Government as a method of delaying the point whereby people committing crimes went to prison. In theory this is a good thing because once people, especially teenagers, enter the prison system the chance of them ever getting out of it gets worse and worse. There was also much publicity a few years ago about youngsters going t'nick and just learning more and more criminal techniques when they got there.

The down side is that there are plenty who know that as long as their crimes aren't too serious, the chances are that if they get caught, for example, once in every ten crimes, they can probably commit about 30 to 40 before they eventually get locked up.

The up side is that if the "perp" is just being led astray by his mates then when he, or she gets caught it won't ruin their life.

Unless a driver is convicted of something like Causing death by dangerous driving, or hitting 150 then it's unlikely there'll be a custodial sentance in the future so a Caution wouldn't be appropriate.

 

[sludgeguts]

Got a beaut of an update. As I got home yesterday afternoon, some muppet along the road was really ragging his engine outside his house - big, loud exhaust, loud ICE etc. He was really giving it some, this went on for about 15 mins.
THEN, he decides to use the road as his own personal racetrack. Again, really thrashing the @rse out of the engine.
SHE came out of her house to see WTF was going on, just as matey boy was ragging it back along the road between our houses. He then sat outside his house for another 10 minutes with the music pumping away.
Interesting that the boys in blue have yet to pay a visit (because I would see their vehicle on my camera), whereas the little bit of noise my lad made warranted a visit within 90 minutes!
I wonder if she hasn't reported them because they iz Asian Innit?

 

[Caravadossi]

... the little bit of noise my lad made warranted a visit within 90 minutes! ...

Almost a Grade 2 (60min) response!
How certain are you that the van men are police?

It specifically states on the TVP website that they do not handle noise nuisance complaints.
http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/reptcr-local-council/reptcr-resources.htm

Two in five violent criminals handed a caution
Last May, it was disclosed that serious repeat offenders stand the lowest chance in a decade of being jailed. And it emerged in the wake of the summer riots that half of those involved were, on average, responsible for 15 previous offences, but had never been jailed.
Full text:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-five-violent-criminals-handed-a-caution.html

120404

 

[sludgeguts]

Almost a Grade 2 (60min) response!
How certain are you that the van men are police?

It specifically states on the TVP website that they do not handle noise nuisance complaints.
http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/reptcr-local-council/reptcr-resources.htm

The one visiting for over 2 hours? - I noted their reg no. and included it in my email of complaint. The ones visiting me the first time had a similar van & the more senior officer that came round to explain said they had submitted a report (and he would be having words with them about not taking details). The second pair visiting - I didn't take too much notice of what the bloke was saying as I was quite angry and I seemed to recognise him from somewhere (I later realised it was one of the blokes off the telly).
I specifically mentioned the notes on the web regarding TVP not handling noise complaints & was given the twaddle about them upping their game since the force got a slap on the wrist over Pilkington.

On the plus side, I now feel TVP have set the benchmark, so if ever I should need them...
Unlike the time I kept reporting an untaxed vehicle parking outside my house over a period of 3 months. next time I won't be saying "it's untaxed", I'll be saying that the lad is sat outside my house playing his music at full volume & constantly revving his engine :devil:

 

[sludgeguts]

Here we go again.
Had another 2 come to visit during the week, a Sargeant & 1 other. this time, it was about engines being revved up at 2am
And they said that they had recieved complaints from "more than one neighbour".
I asked them if they could provide specific details about said event as I could then refer to my CCTV (getting laptop out ready...).
Seems that 'someone' doesn't make notes of dates, just the fact that it's 2am.

I told the guys that this seemed too convenient for my liking, especially as I had the wherewithall to check my cctv footage.
This time they continued on about more than one complaint and how they had the powers to confiscate the vehicle if things continued.
By now, I was getting really wound up and somewhat arsey. I told them that they could try but if they valued their jobs they had better come to me with something more than a vague story about 2 neighbours complaining about a 2am nuisance and no dates to back this up. (if the complaints had been made at 2am then this would all have been logged by the police at the time, and maybe they would even have come straight round.

Since then, my lad has told me that if the couple are outside their house when he is out there, they stand there and stare at him. Would I be within my rights to adjust my cctv camera to cover their driveway so we can see if this is a case of prolonged staring (or just my son's paranoia)? Or would this be considered a breach of rights?
If I can, I can save these events to computer for future use.

The way I left things with the sarge was that I gave him my name & mobile number - for their records & said that the phone is with me at all times. I said they could ring me anytime day or night - even if it is 3am - and I will look into it.

We also have a theory that because the original complainant is ex police and the second complainant might just be her nervy neighbour - that they happened to be talking outside one day & #1 mentioned the noisy cars, #2 said she had heard a bit of engine revving (could have been anyone, anywhere) so #1 said 'it's the lad over the road, I have already complained about it, you should too' so #2 takes it on trust (as #1 is ex police so wouldn't lie) and makes a complaint. Which may account for the lack of dates, just the time?

 

[jenks69]

http://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/faqs/d...ic.aspx#f89CC45B4-580B-4FCD-98A2-278DE2D7446C

That suggests that for personal / security use it's fine to record your neighbours drive. Just make sure you can't see any windows and doors and you should be OK.

In your shoes I'd be tempted to write a letter of complaint to your local MP and also the most senior person at the station. Keep it friendly and just let them know they can't keep calling round about complaints that should be handled by local council / enviro health, and that you'll take it further if they don't start producing accurate evidence about dates times and what the issue is.

 

[sludgeguts]

Thanks for the link. I have already complained to a senior within the TVP area via email but I might just be tempted to give them a nudge.

 

[Focus Owner]

i have no idea where bucks is, but my engine needs a service, and i think it will need oil circulated for may hours at full revs