Technical Seriously considering a HUGE swap project

[chema]

I need some advice. I am thinking of putting a 3s-gte turbo engine and LSD transmission from an mk2 MR2. The whole unit (engine, tansaxle, wiring harness, etc) weighs ~600lbs. It's a 2.0L DOHC 16v, EFI, intercooled, 'twin entry (I hope that means what I think it means) turbo', boosted to 10psi (13psi for late model [my first option if I could find one]) that puts out 220hp (240hp late model), and 200lb-ft @ 3200 rpm (4000rpm).
oh, and you can find 'em for about $2200usd imported from japan with less then 40k mi.

Well now that I've exhausted you with information, what do you think? is it too heavy? too much work? not worth it for the power? WILL IT EVEN FIT?

thanks,
Chema

 

[jimbro1000]

Chema - given the cost of what it is likely to take to refit the X1/9 with the MR2 block and transmission I would have to say you are most likely better off just buying an MR2 turbo safe in the knowledge that it will work reliably.

That isn't to say it can't be done but it is not a simple operation. The Toyota engine is heavier but not by much of a margin and if you are willing to move the fueltank to the front of the car you can move the engine forwards you can probably get the best weight distribution fore and aft of any X1/9 on the road.

The engine and transmission will fit but you'll need some custom fabricated parts (driveshafts and hubs spring to mind).

Once you've got the engine you need to look at the chassis too - it is a serious hike in torque you are proposing and the original chassis is not going to like it.

I run similar power and torque in mine but the chassis is heavily reinforced, triangulating all of the suspension mounting points in an attempt to ensure the whole thing doesn't end up looking like a banana. My setup is very intrusive but it is for a race car so I can afford to be a little crude in this respect - for the road you would need to spend a lot of time and effort (and probably money) in order to prevent damage to the chassis.

The suspension isn't going to be easy either - you need to re-adjust the balance of the car to suit signficantly higher speeds unless you want to trot around at normal speeds and only use the power in a straight line. Fortunately there are more that a few people around that have spent an awful lot of time tuning the suspension of the X1/9.

If you want to go the whole hog we have competition grade custom suspension including wishbones and hubs but you are looking at around $5000USD a corner.

If you want a simpler option we build turbo versions of the SOHC Fiat engine that give the same kind of performance. It is a more expensive option but it cuts down on the other costs.

Is it worth it? That really depends on what you want from the car?

We have three completely different approaches to obtaining seriously high performance out of an X1/9 that I can point you to.

The first is a 1300 Trivellato setup. It doesn't give the same kind of peak figures (only around 170bhp) but it is a very fast car.

The second is mine - a 1400 Fiat Turbo tuned by Wolf Direct Racing. The design is supposed to give 250bhp and 220lbft (dependent on environmental conditions) but in testing the engine has produced nearer 300bhp in the past.

The third is an Alfa Romeo touring car engine and transmission. Again this produces around the same power figure (220-250bhp) but requires much more work to make everything fit (and an awful lot of expensive maintenance).

All three have been built for competition and the two normally aspirated engines are not really suitable for road use. The turbo option on the other hand is pretty versatile and we've run a few of these engines in road cars. The performance is bordering on the limits of what can be controlled. The gearing is just too short making the acceleration rather explosive and gearshifts critical. Not really the sort of thing you want on the road. When it comes to beating everything else over a quarter mile though it really is a hard act to follow!

I'm not trying to sell you any of the kit we use, just put this all in perspective.

 

[chema]

Thank you so much for the response. I was half expecting you to say why not just buy an MR2; I might have to do just that. I am however, really intrigued by the 1400 turbo engine, what fiat did it come from [EDIT: oh an uno turbo duh]? more importantly what kind $numbers$ are we talking? do you insist that I would have to rebuild the whole suspension? what about the other two engines? are any of them reliable, for daily and/or ethusiastic driving?

Sorry if I have too many questions, but you seem to take pleasure in answering them, so I promise I wont feel too bad. btw thank you very much.

 

[jimbro1000]

actually the engine came from a Punto GT in the end but I was running an Uno Turbo engine for a while. The other engines really are not suitable for daily use. The alfa engine has servicing costs that would pay for the rest of the car several times over. You would be looking at around $100,000USD a year just for the engine for an average 10,000miles. The Trivellato engine is equally highly strung pushing the 1300 normally aspirated engine to the very limit. I certainly wouldn't suggest either for daily use.

The cost of a turbo engine depends totally on what exactly you want. The full blown engine I use runs between 16psi and 20psi of boost but the components we use could take this to 30psi - the downside is that the servicing requirements go up too. At lower boost levels the engine is just as good, we run the engines in limited to 6psi but the cars are still obviously quicker than before and great fun to drive. If you do want more info I suggest you contact me through my profile as this really isn't the place.

The point about the suspension is that the stock suspension simply can't cope at higher speeds. We already know that the X1/9 suspension is very good to start with but as an absolute minimum you are looking at 25% uprated springs and dampers. When you have a car capable of a top speed 50mph above the original limits you need to be sure it isn't going to become erratic when you push it that bit further. Stereotypically the handling does become very skittish over 100mph and very light at the front - seriously bad news. Lowering the car helps to overcome the problems as does using an airdam to limit air flow under the car.

 

[chema]

How much would it cost for a 1400 turbo that put out around 180-200whp? and where can I get really stiff springs?

 

[jimbro1000]

check your PM!

Springs can be obtained pretty much anywhere although they may need fabricating. I suggest asking on the fiat racers forum at www.mirafiori.com as that seems to be the largest concentration of knowledge on suppliers in the USA that I know of.

 

[YX75]

I have seen an x19 with the fiat lancia twin cam in it on twin carbs. Probably a bit heavier than the original sohc but its has good torque. I dont know how easy it would be to fit one of these in an x19 though. I'd imagine its a squeeze!

 

[Neverstop]

Although is you where going to do all that work and use a 3sGTE you could try and use the one from the GT4 and try the four wheel drive system with it, once you have worked out the drive direction it has two chances!

 

[dazzo666]

I have seen an x19 with the fiat lancia twin cam in it on twin carbs. Probably a bit heavier than the original sohc but its has good torque. I dont know how easy it would be to fit one of these in an x19 though. I'd imagine its a squeeze!

Yes a friend of mine has a race tuned 2.0 twinkie on twin carbs, camed and ported putting out about 220bhp :slayer: he also has a 1.9 tdi :slayer: in one along with a mk1 uno turbo conversion,:slayer: .... they all well engineered and the 2.0 twinkie is a bit of a mare due to carb position and gear linkage set-up....

 

[toad101]

i've seen one with an alfa 3.0v6 think it was a 24v aswell, they had to move the suspension turrets

 

[dazzo666]

i've seen one with an alfa 3.0v6 think it was a 24v aswell, they had to move the suspension turrets

oh my god i bet that was a mission, would'nt the front end be very light with all that weight?

 

[exxy51]

Check it out! that convertion was crazy..... http://www.p1x-2000.co.uk/:slayer: :devil: :worship: :yum:

 

[bludvl_x19]

Would it be possible to keep the original engine, and place an identical motor from the Regatta under the bonnet, creating a twin-engine, all wheel drive monster?:devil:

 

[Eoin611]

You could always go with Honda power. Have Accord type R 2.2vtec in my X1/9, the engines are available and along with being almost bulletproof are reasonably cheap aswell. Again it requires a lot of fabrication for engine mounts, the halfshaft setup works out easy enough as two standard short drives can be mated to the Honda drive cup. If you shatter halfshafts under hard acceleration it's easy to replace.
It all boils down to how much work you can do yourself, how much money you want to spend and how adventurous you are.
That 1400 Uno Turbo idea sounds like a blast and probably the easiest aswell.

 

[DARTH VADER]

Sorry to bother, Jimbro 1100, you belong to wolf direct racing?
I think so, and then, please inform me why I made a transfer to wolf direct racing for a cams to my Cinquecento Sport and already 30 days have passed with no reply from wolf direct racing with a lot of mails done by me to Richard (is it you?) and so, I'm with less 110 pounds and no material....

Regards