Rotary engines.. issues Mazda..NSU

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Rotary engines.. issues Mazda..NSU

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I heard a sick running Mazda recently..

Amusingly it sounded like a wheezy Vespa :eek:

The owner said it had broken down on a trip ....and he was attempting to
' get to the bottom of the misfire '

It certainly 'pops' ;)

Ive no real experience of them.. knowing ' rotor tips' were the Achilles heel of them for decades

Being 'piston ported' - ala 2-stroke

Is a lost seal going to allow one chambers spark igniting another chambers fuel..??

Its also smoky on occasions.. which makes me think of a lost seal of some description

Anybody got 1st hand experience..?

Possibly @bugsymike , @porta

I am intrigued.. :)
 
My time with Mazda was to cover a multi-marque dealers loss of their own auto-electrician…mainly on bog
standard cars and their pickups
I can say though that their ignition system looked like a 70’s era tardis or maybe something that Gerry Anderson did for a plot of UFO
There used to be a very good independent RX expert in Lancashire, can’t remember the name, if they are anywhere near?!?
 
Many years ago I was foreman at a Mazda Dealership, in those days we worked on the Mazda RX2s and 3s, the RX3s in the mid 70s were dying left right and centre, to the point you could buy a three year old one with a duff engine for £150.
These were all four choke carb models with twin distributors and contact points, before the RX7s and 8s, and being a Dealership there was no old high mileage ones.
The minor issue was "rotor tip chatter" a bit like pinking, but generally by increasing the oil metering it would largely stop that albeit with a hint of smoke as you belted away;).
The worse thing was side seal failure which gave symptoms like a head gasket on a conventional engine, coolant tank pressurising and chucking all the water out and unable to tick over below 2000 rpm (agood one could idle below 700rpm). This involved a complete strip down, the aluminium sections that the rotors turned in had twin grooves on both sides where the cast iron sections mated against and the rubber seals failed usually near where the leading and trailing spark plugs were fitted as that was the "combustion area" although the three chambers were in each rotor ( I had to look up the name for it as so long ago epitrochoid ), hence a twin rotor engine ran a smooth as a six cylinder.
The mod supposed to cure the side seal issue was thin tin shims that were meant to keep combustion heat from the rubber side seals, hard to tell if it was a long term cure as most owners sold them after the job was done!
Assuming no water problem, a compression test may be a guide, or maybe the coil packs are tracking and firing plugs at the wrong time
I never worked on any later ones with fuel injection and electronic ignition.
If you decide to do a compression test, only take the leading spark plugs out if it is like the ones I worked on or else the compression will blow out the trailing plug hole.
I was trying to think how it could pop back as you described, similar to a conventional engine with burnt valves, as mentioned as Dealers none were high mileage hence the main issues were as I said, I suppose a badly worn rotor tip could allow ignited gases to get to the inlet port etc.
I think I would start with a compression test, then if good look towards coil packs tracking across to fire at the wrong time, these well predated ECUs etc. but maybe whatever is used to time the spark may be another direction to look.
What model and age would give maybe more of an idea.
Failing ones often had the V4 2000E Ford Corsair engine fitted as fairly compact, although the RX3 was a coupe that had a sister car the Mazda 818 with a four cylinder conventional petrol engine of 1300cc which to me was a pretty little car. They even did an automatic that was responsive and a pleasure to drive, unlike the Austin A60 with Borg Warner boxes around at the time.
When new I was impressed how smooth the power was, you could almost say like an EV, though economy was not a high point until you took into account in effect it was a high powered six cylinder two stroke running on carbs.:)
 
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Thanks for the replies (y)

The car belongs to a neighbour.. certainly owned for a while.. but no idea of its history

Dont notice it running often.. but noticed its funny tone a while back..( thinking about it ..it seemed 'rough starting'..a month or so ago)

Like many.. my experience is anecdotal

People bought them cheap with failed rotors.. often breaking them

The Leather seats selling well with VW Transporter owners

Its running oddly..almost like the timing had slipped

Poor starting... and Exhaust backfires like Ive not heard in decades :)
 
Where to start? Even this makes more sense to me:

On an engine that’s like witchcraft to many, I’d say take it the wise woman at the end of the street.
On a vastly more serious note, I’d check the ignition electrics first, as, if that solves it, it’s the cheapest option, but, knowing these engines don’t like not being run and high (normal) miles expect the worst, or are we just being defeatist?
 
Did find this in Palgrave Technical Service Manual 1985 on early RX7 giving a compression of 107psi at 250rpm (minimum 85 psi) so easy to see why not a lot of low down torque perhaps and why it could be harder to start when worn.
 

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The car belongs to a neighbour.. certainly owned for a while.. but no idea of its history

Dont notice it running often.. but noticed its funny tone a while back..( thinking about it ..it seemed 'rough starting'..a month or so ago)

Like many.. my experience is anecdotal

People bought them cheap with failed rotors.. often breaking them

The Leather seats selling well with VW Transporter owners
I take it, this is an RX8??

I know at one point they were everywhere, and while the engines where better than older rotary engines they still needed a rebuild every 30k miles.

Car Throttle on Youtube did a whole series on an Old RX8 they had bought for a few hundred quid a few years back.

They highlighted in the videos that the centre of the Apex seals would get less oil than the edges and therefore wear out the middle part of the seal first leading to low compression, which then leads low compression-> low power, running issues and hot start issues

 
Just watched some of the rotary videos about lube to the rotor tips and how they are using premix etc.
When I was working on the RX3s etc. they still had carbs and there was a metering pump connected to the carb and in every service we would measure how many CCs of oil per minute went to the carb, usually the ones with rotor tip chatter also had low oil metering.
I see on the rotary engines now the modern oils are not suited to that due to the additives, hence introducing engine oil into a two stroke combustion chamber usually by injection through the rotor housing wall is not ideal, but some are using two stroke oil separately instead of drawn from the engine sump.
I note economy is still an issue.;)
 
5 years ago i knew 3 rx8 owners 2 in work and my next door nieghbour (he now has a tesla)
One of them had his repaired / rebuilt by a specialist in Coventry. It was not cheap. Then most rx8s were being taken of the road for racing, particularly for "sliding" whatever that is.if the details are required i will try and get them.
Probably
 
5 years ago i knew 3 rx8 owners 2 in work and my next door nieghbour (he now has a tesla)
One of them had his repaired / rebuilt by a specialist in Coventry. It was not cheap. Then most rx8s were being taken of the road for racing, particularly for "sliding" whatever that is.if the details are required i will try and get them.
Probably
I am guessing "sliding " is drifting, where they use reasonably powerful rear wheel drive cars to basically do a bit more of "hanging the back end out" that we used to do with old Ford Zephyrs with six cylinder engines and cross ply tyres very easily in the wet as youngsters, but they do it more responsibly on a race track with a bit more imaginative driving.;)
 
I am guessing "sliding " is drifting, where they use reasonably powerful rear wheel drive cars to basically do a bit more of "hanging the back end out" that we used to do with old Ford Zephyrs with six cylinder engines and cross ply tyres very easily in the wet as youngsters, but they do it more responsibly on a race track with a bit more imaginative driving.;)
The old Capri was pretty good for this too. Didn’t need to be powerful as there was zero weight over the back wheels
 
Just watched some of the rotary videos about lube to the rotor tips and how they are using premix etc.
When I was working on the RX3s etc. they still had carbs and there was a metering pump connected to the carb and in every service we would measure how many CCs of oil per minute went to the carb, usually the ones with rotor tip chatter also had low oil metering.
I see on the rotary engines now the modern oils are not suited to that due to the additives, hence introducing engine oil into a two stroke combustion chamber usually by injection through the rotor housing wall is not ideal, but some are using two stroke oil separately instead of drawn from the engine sump.
I note economy is still an issue.;)
I know for a fact that back in the 70s Exxon and their Paramins additives people did loads of work for manufacturers on the challenges that the rotary engines presents especially with rotor tip wear and lubrication.

Similarly BorgWarner in that era with their new auto transmissions were having issues with lubricants and clutch pack wear. Again Exxon/Paramins were involved in coming up with additives to mitigate (if not eliminate) the problems.

It is fact that whenever some new design / technology is developed then what were then standard accepted lubricants become not sufficient in the manufacturer's eyes so they get the like of Shell, Exxon etc. to research and develop additives to formulate *better* products.

When people say oil is oil then yes it is. But you only have to consider gear oil, vs petrol or diesel oil, vs ATF fluids etc to realise the a Quality Oil/Lubricant is not some back street kitchen concoction but is in fact a very specialised and developed product.

When say Shell develop a new additive that solves an issue for a manufacturer (possibly with a new engine or gearbox design) then ultimately this will find it's way into all quality oils. This is done by tests and standards.

An example of this is Fiat MultiAir engines. There were (as I understand it) all sorts of issues in getting an oil that would lubricate the engine AND act as a hydraulic pumping fluid to operate the valves. No longer do you have just traditional engine/bearing/piston lubrication issues but you now have high frequency small cylinder pumping and flow issues. Fiat changed oil specifications several time before settling on Selenia 0W 30 C2. This was a special formulation and thus recommended. 0W 30 C2 was quite rare but is now more commonly available some 5+ years on. Note also that 0W 30 and C2 are basic fluid characteristics but for example anti frothing, cleaning, anti carbon, ...... properties are not covered as such by just the 0W 30 rating.

I remember talking to Castrol and others, looking up oil manufacturer supported products for use in the 500X Multiair back in 2015 and ONLY Castrol and Selenia/Petronas would quote/recommend their oil. Now things are better and there are more options.

Bottom line is that if a manufacturer of a new car/technology states use XYZ then you are best off following their recommendation to begin with and then at a later date see what other recommended options are available.
 
Just seen a utube today that mazda have produced protype EV hybrids with an onboard charger driven by a petrol rotary engine. (Nox not at all an issue) Not yet on sale?
EMI also used a Norton rotary generator on the Cymbaline radar. Wankel not yet totaly confined to history books.
 
Just seen a utube today that mazda have produced protype EV hybrids with an onboard charger driven by a petrol rotary engine. (Nox not at all an issue) Not yet on sale?
EMI also used a Norton rotary generator on the Cymbaline radar. Wankel not yet totaly confined to history books.
Some years ago I saw a Wankel stationary engine at Dorset Steam Fair I think it may have been Dutch.
The ones I worked on in the 1970s in Mazda RX3s and 4s were carburetor not injected and economy was their weak point. That and poor low end torque.
It is a nice compact quiet unit which may be one reason it is used.
 
Some years ago I saw a Wankel stationary engine at Dorset Steam Fair I think it may have been Dutch.
The ones I worked on in the 1970s in Mazda RX3s and 4s were carburetor not injected and economy was their weak point. That and poor low end torque.
It is a nice compact quiet unit which may be one reason it is used.
AT a Norton factory trip just before the launch of we were given a presentation of what Norton were intending to do and the advantage of the rotary in various markets including aviation (single engine small plane). Size, weight, power, pick the 2 you wanted as an advantage over a 4 stroke engine and they could design for it , simplicity in terms of number of components was a given. The new Mazda engine has fuel injection which has taken (designed/ developed) away many of the disadvantages of previous motors. Having ridden both air cooled and Commander versions of the Norton (prototype on the Isle of Man TT week) they were beyond thier time. A mate lent me his ex RAF Air cooled for a week. Grinability off the scale, a Landy and a 350 Navigator was more his style.
 
There is an inverted design of rotary engine that has a triangular chamber with a figure of 8 shaped rotor, the apex seals are built into the walls of the chamber and so can be directly oiled while in use overcoming the issue with worn out apex seals.


 
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