General Rolling road vs dyno, vs dynapack

[randomizered]

I fancy a power run and hopefully local.

I have had some quotes of 110+VAT (2 hours?! for a power run!), and have been looking for cheaper.

I'm not interested in a true dyno cell measurement....FAR too much hassle, but there seem to be people using a system called dynapack.

Basically, they remove the wheels, bolt adapters onto the hubs and measure.

I can't find reviews of how well the system works, so has anyone got any opinions or comments?

For up to 6 power runs is £60+VAT so not too expensive.

http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/Dynapack_FAQs-20.asp is a bit more information.

I have never heard of them before, so a bit skeptical, hence the post

Kristian

 

[fingers99]

Looks like it'll work.

Problems are:

how good are the operators? At £60 for up to 6 power runs (an hour?) I'd expect rock apes. I was paying £50 an hour 20 years ago..........

I don't think you need (want is a different thing!) a power run: you need a set up session with someone who is both competent (and experienced) and sympathetic to Megasquirt.

A chassis dyno makes no sense unless you're doing real engine development, I agree.

 

[J333EVO]

Thor Racing are more known in Jap circles, not heard anything bad about them.

I am sure that as with any dynometer than runs from hubs or wheels its always going to be down to how the operator works the equipment. I have heard the hub ones are pretty good, but bit of fan unknown quantity.

The only true way is an engine dyno, and well you are not going to lift the engine out to check it.

The tradition ones of course will give wheel power which in comparing to other cars you get an idea. I know Emma's car made 92bhp at the wheels, but recently saw a r/r from an Ignis Sport that made 85WHP and yet the r/r said it had 119bhp at fly wheel. We used the equation WHP+10/0.9 for FWD cars to get flywheel power of 113.3bhp, but its more than likely that on a different r/r the car would make a higher flywheel power.

Do not use the thumb rule of 18% for FWD loses that is often touted about, it flawed badly, because the higher the power a car makes the lower in percentage terms loses through transmission will be, and vice versa.

And I wouldn't waste my money on just a power run, I'd get someone who is willing to check all your fuelling and help map it correctly, otherwise I can't see the point.

 

[randomizered]

The reason I want a power run, is just to see how well i have self mapped. See if the plots look like wiggly worm and putting out 50bhp or actually look like decent plots making respectable power.

I have asked around about MS mapping, and its both pricey and not many fancy it.

I'll always be messing with the car, and megasquirt, trying new features and firmwares, adding knock etc. so a pro map will need adjusting quite quickly or just get played about with anyway .

I got a price from Chris..."£60 per hour + vat, megasquirt normally takes 4-5 hours to map" but he's also need the car a few days he said. £350, loss of car, and transport costs are not in my budget at the moment.

It was more for curiosities sake rather than anything else.

@fingers - the page isn't that clear, it may be one run, one hour, or as many runs as possible in the hour I may ring them to check. I could just buy time and self map there, which could be fun


Kristian

 

[fingers99]

@fingers - the page isn't that clear, it may be one run, one hour, or as many runs as possible in the hour I may ring them to check. I could just buy time and self map there, which could be fun

That'd be the way to go. Of course, the old fashioned way of checking things is a quarter mile...............

 

[randomizered]

That'd be the way to go. Of course, the old fashioned way of checking things is a quarter mile...............

time to borrow arc's gtech again :devil: not that i've asked him yet

 

[balidey]

I was just about to say, try one of these...

http://www.gtechpro.com/

Seem to be as accurate as you can expect. We all know RR all vary, and the calcs used to get from wheel to FW are at best a guess, so no reason why one of these will not give you a close estimate.

 

[GhostWKD]

Have only heard good things about thor

 

[arc]

time to borrow arc's gtech again :devil: not that i've asked him yet

haha, i'll have to find it first

 

[GhostWKD]

and since you're digging it out arc, when my turbo's fixed

 

[arc]

one day, i'll get to use it myself!

 

[J333EVO]

I have a Race Technology AP22 performance meter, always welcome to use for those local.

http://www.race-technology.com/ap22_2_82.html

 

[rallycinq]

Am I missing something here, but surely if you do a power run and the set up is incorrect you could damage the engine.

Too little fuelling or an advance problem and the car is running weak at high engine speeds and goes bang.

How does the budget stack up for replacing that?

I spent several hundred pounds on rolling road time to get the engine safe and dialed in, before using it to its full extent.

Cheers

D

 

[allanhelen]

Am I missing something here, but surely if you do a power run and the set up is incorrect you could damage the engine.

Too little fuelling or an advance problem and the car is running weak at high engine speeds and goes bang.

How does the budget stack up for replacing that?

I spent several hundred pounds on rolling road time to get the engine safe and dialed in, before using it to its full extent.

Cheers

D

:worship::worship::worship::worship:

Just what i was thinking!!!!

surely in your position you need a "safe" map that gives you how then engine should run and what it "should give" as a benchmark? i know with NA you have wider tollerances before it goes T*ts up but..........

 

[randomizered]

I have a wideband sensor monitoring all the time, and can monitor the fueling during all my driving patterns, from cruising, to flat out. Fueling is of NO concern to me whatsoever. I am able to log, adjust on the fly, both manually and automatically, and tune for specific AFR's dependent on load conditions, from both a 12x12 VE table, and also an AFR target table that the wideband works with.


I agree, the spark map / ignition side, is definitely an unknown quantity to me, and is just a copy of a punto 75 ignition map. This is the part i would really like tuned

Still, I have done on the road testing, really pushing the car, and have yet to hear any signs of detonation or pinking...theres not much between me and my engine now, so i get a good listen I've run flat out to 7k through the gears well over speeds I should mention here, and so am fairly confident, it will at least survive one or two runs through the rev range. It's not like I just installed it a few days ago either, I've done at least several thousand miles with MS now.

I in no way think my mapping is anywhere near close to perfect, and will never be as good as a rolling road'd setup, but i think it is possible to come close.

There are a few megasquirters who ran their own maps. Dave the Trike, with his crazy supercharged punto. His didn't die during his tuning and testing with MS. Arc runs his own map, Asteris I believe does so also, and me on the 1.2 16v and 1.4 16v. Any others?

I have seen some pretty scary readings when setting up initially, like glowing manifold, AFR's peaking at the 16's under load and running a 30 minute drive, including high speed/high load runs at a fixed 10 degree timing (crazy cock up lol).....I think it is pretty hard to get something so drastically wrong that you kill the engine ...touch wood

I also agree if I was boosted, I may not have been as lucky during setting up and the massive learning curve I've experience, but now i've learnt from my mistakes. The 1368cc is supposed to be a bit more fragile in the crank/piston department, and the high CR off 11:1 is ripe for detonation, so I must be at least part way there?

At least I have the ability to view, log, and change parameters as I see fit unlike some other systems out there.

Now watch me kill it tomo after saying all this

Just got at least 3 weeks work ahead of me, so after that, I may take a trip to dynapack/thor, and see if i loose a piston or two They certainly don't seem to have a bad reputation.


Kristian

 

[fingers99]

I do think buying time with Thor (or someone) is the way to go. There's a real limit to what you can set up on rolling road or real road and, of course, what you really need is to be able to set stable load conditions for the ignition mapping. You just can't left foot brake enough.

Dave Walker tells a story of being pulled while trying to set up a car on the road way back when. Imagine trying now! You can't exactly chuck the laptop under the seat!

Just don't forget: you can't always hear pinking........

What are these other systems of which you speak? Alpha?

ps. The Emerald should be here by the end of next week.........

 

[randomizered]

By other systems I mean stock ECU with piggy back mainly. ie Greddy e-Manage, Edge Performance, Bully-dog, APEXi PowerFC & AFC-II, Perfect Power, HKS F-Con and AFC, ERL MF-2 etc. Though i suppose with the software (if available) and a separate WB, you could map it fine. to be honest I've not looked into them that much. I pressume they only controlled fueling, even on turbo's? Therefore the spark map can't be AS important as the fuel, as long as its in the ball park?

I'm unsure, with systems like emerald, motec etc, can you download the software and actually change the MAP yourself, reprogram it and share it etc? You never hear of anyone talking about it, or sharing information. Perhaps thats just because they can afford not to, or don't wan't to share what they paid out for.

Good news about your emerald though This is going in blue?

Kristian

 

[arc]

I'm unsure, with systems like emerald, motec etc, can you download the software and actually change the MAP yourself, reprogram it and share it etc? You never hear of anyone talking about it, or sharing information. Perhaps thats just because they can afford not to, or don't wan't to share what they paid out for.

Good news about your emerald though This is going in blue?

Kristian

afaik it uses a non standard serial cable to connect, i have a copy of the mapping software. so i guess u can map it yourself.. but just don't hear much of it.

i understand what Kristian is saying here, he's mapped the car himself and just wants to know what kind of power it is running now. I'd like to know on my car too, gives an idea how well the mapping is going.

With the array of sensors etc on my car, i'd be quite happy doing a full power run on it - it's seen that kind of load on the road.

 

[fingers99]

I'm unsure, with systems like emerald, motec etc, can you download the software and actually change the MAP yourself, reprogram it and share it etc? You never hear of anyone talking about it, or sharing information. Perhaps thats just because they can afford not to, or don't wan't to share what they paid out for.

Good news about your emerald though This is going in blue?

Kristian

With Emerald, at least, you can. Although I'm not sure that anyone outside of the K series mafia actually does. The problem is that while you can use a similar(ish) car as a basemap, without very tight control, no two engines are going to be quite the same.

But sure, the software is out there.

Be interesting to look at the final build and installation costs of Emerald vs Megasquirt.

Yes, this one's for Blue. So much to do that I think the April finish date will slip to May.........

 

[Brooky]

just make sure you have a good map.....then send a copy to me

P.s im still waiting for my MS, been nearly two weeks since it was 'posted' off