Technical Random warning beeps & light

[Hellohelenhere]

Hullo all. I bought a fairly battered (bodywork) but well-running Fiat a few months ago - it's a Punto Dynamic Speedgear
, 2003. After about 6 weeks, all of a sudden, I got a flashing red symbol, lower left on the display, looks like a car with the bonnet raised. Goes off intermittently. (Thought it was bonnet/boot open sign, but apparently not). It was sometimes accompanied by a two tone beeping warning sound; and then, new development, I started to get the two tone beeping sound (similar to the one you get when the indicators are on) every time I touch the brake! (Whether or not the red symbol is flashing). I've taken into the garage and they're baffled. Any ideas?

Note - the aforementioned battered bodywork includes a big dent at the back, which deforms the boot a bit. The boot door appears to close fine - but wondered if this might be connected to the problem?

Sounds to me like some sort of electrical issue, I suspected loose wires, but the garage haven't found that to be the case.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

Ah, it's the transmission fault light, according to this page:
https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/das...lights/fiat-500-dashboard-warning-lights.html

Is the behaviour I've described, what you'd expect? Seems a bit weird that it goes on and off and comes on when I touch the brake?

Also... transmission faults... are they expensive to fix? :-/

 

[judderbar]

Hullo all. I bought a fairly battered (bodywork) but well-running Fiat a few months ago - it's a Punto Dynamic Speedgear
, 2003. After about 6 weeks, all of a sudden, I got a flashing red symbol, lower left on the display, looks like a car with the bonnet raised. Goes off intermittently. (Thought it was bonnet/boot open sign, but apparently not). It was sometimes accompanied by a two tone beeping warning sound; and then, new development, I started to get the two tone beeping sound (similar to the one you get when the indicators are on) every time I touch the brake! (Whether or not the red symbol is flashing). I've taken into the garage and they're baffled. Any ideas?

Note - the aforementioned battered bodywork includes a big dent at the back, which deforms the boot a bit. The boot door appears to close fine - but wondered if this might be connected to the problem?

Sounds to me like some sort of electrical issue, I suspected loose wires, but the garage haven't found that to be the case.

Does sound odd. I am fairly sure my 2005 dynamic manual is unable to produce any beeping sounds.

Have you worked out where that beep is coming from?

 

[judderbar]

Ah, it's the transmission fault light, according to this page:
https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/das...lights/fiat-500-dashboard-warning-lights.html

Is the behaviour I've described, what you'd expect? Seems a bit weird that it goes on and off and comes on when I touch the brake?

Also... transmission faults... are they expensive to fix? :-/

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/wp-...500-automatic-gearbox-fault-warning-light.jpg

it might be your oil level is low and touching the brakes is causing the oil to move to create the warning. There is a yellow dipstick on the box? Have you checked it? Garage must have I suppose.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

The transmission oil, you mean? God, I hope that's all it is. It's at the garage right now, I assume they'll check that but I'll certainly ask.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

Someone else had the beeping-when-braking problem here:
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/302879-fiat-punto-sporting-auto-beeping-when-braking.html

Gosh I do hope it's going to be something simple like a bad earth. I was so convinced it was an electrical problem that I didn't take it very seriously, but now I'm panicking that I might have a trashed transmission. Eeeek.

 

[judderbar]

Someone else had the beeping-when-braking problem here:
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/302879-fiat-punto-sporting-auto-beeping-when-braking.html

Gosh I do hope it's going to be something simple like a bad earth. I was so convinced it was an electrical problem that I didn't take it very seriously, but now I'm panicking that I might have a trashed transmission. Eeeek.

Dave on the other thread is an expert, so there is a good chance the problem is just the bad earth in the boot of the car that the rear lights connects to - crash damage there might be part of the problem.

 

[Brendan W]

Might be worthwhile checking the earth wire ( black) in the rear light clusters. They and auto boxes have a weird relationship.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

I'm crossing my fingers as hard as possible. Petrified I'll have damaged the transmission by not taking that flashing symbol seriously soon enough. Aaaargh.
The guy who is working on it seems pretty baffled. I'm wondering if the braking-beeping and the flashing red transmission symbol are in fact two separate problems? He's having a look at the transmission now and I'll talk to him in another hour or so. <emoticon for crossing fingers> <emoticon for placating the deities>

 

[g8rpi]

I'm crossing my fingers as hard as possible. Petrified I'll have damaged the transmission by not taking that flashing symbol seriously soon enough. Aaaargh.
The guy who is working on it seems pretty baffled. I'm wondering if the braking-beeping and the flashing red transmission symbol are in fact two separate problems? He's having a look at the transmission now and I'll talk to him in another hour or so. <emoticon for crossing fingers> <emoticon for placating the deities>

Hi,
As others have said it 's highly likely to be a bad connection on the rear light cluster chassis (ground) connection. This should be an easy fix. The automatic box needs to sense when you press the brake and uses part of the same circuit that puts the brake lights on. Where are you located? maybe someone can suggest a good garage / auto electrician or even help you themselves. If nothing else show this thread and the other https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/302879-fiat-punto-sporting-auto-beeping-when-braking.html
To the mechanic at your current garage.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

Update: the garage say it's a problem with the gearbox, I can't remember the term but it results in a delay. This gearbox problem is apparently causing the beeping-braking problem as well, for reasons I can't guess at. I'm told that it isn't urgent, I can drive it as it is, and I'm going to take it back on Monday for the gearbox expert to have a look at it.

Meanwhile, I worry how much a gearbox problem could potentially cost me, but I am *very* relieved to learn that it wasn't anything I did wrong, and my delay in taking this problem to the garage didn't make anything worse. I was petrified that I had destroyed the transmission, by being an idiot. (I still am an idiot for not dealing with it immediately.)

 

[Hellohelenhere]

Update on this saga. The garage came to the conclusion there was definitely a transmission fault, and that it was going to cost between £400 - £1000 to fix. They asked me for a £400 deposit, and as that was the lower end of the estimate, and I know transmissions are expensive to fix, I paid it - like an idiot. (I now know that deposits are not in any way normal, and they bloody saw me coming...)
I went to see them on the 2nd day they had it and talked to the mechanic, to pass on what I’d learned on this thread: the problem was very likely to be the wires to the rear light cluster. He said ‘no, it’s not that, because if it was that, then blah blah blah (some mechanic talk that I didn’t understand). I assumed he knew what he was talking about.


About a week later, they called to say I could pick it up; it wasn’t the transmission at all but an electrical problem with the wires to the back lights. (Surprise!) However, the bill magically still came to nearly £400. £150 for labour, £150 for the 3hrs they spent diagnosing the problem, £20 for sundries, £64 VAT = £384; rounding up to £400 for the use of the courtesy car they lent me for a week.


I quibbled but I didn’t get anywhere. Seems remarkable it took them 3hrs to diagnose the problem when I’d already told them what it was.* I can't believe I was so stupid as to pay that bloody deposit!

I've written to them suggesting that 3 hours diagnosis time is a lot to charge for, when I told them what the problem probably was; and 3 hours to fix a single wiring problem seems remarkable. I've asked that they return half of what I paid them, in which case I'll be able to agree with the owner's assessment of himself as an honest operator (which he gives on Honest Jon's) in my online reviews. I did also mention Trading Standards as an option.

Don't suppose it'll get me anywhere, but it's worth a try. If he has any sense he'll pay up, because if he doesn't, he's basically spending £200 on bad publicity. He's quite likely too stubborn to be sensible, though, and too used to successfully fleecing people.

*perhaps they mean on the day they had it, before I'd learned about rear light clusters on here, and gone in to tell them. But if it took the mechanic 3 hours to find out what I learned online quite quickly, then is his expertise really worth £50 an hour? Those are expert hours I'm meant to be paying for, not bumbling, try-everything hours. Or am I being unfair?

 

[Scudmonkey]

Might be worthwhile checking the earth wire ( black) in the rear light clusters. They and auto boxes have a weird relationship.

They have a weird relationship with manual cars too, weird things happen on the instrument panel

 

[Hellohelenhere]

OK, so I have quibbled the bill and am considering trading standards, on 2 counts:
- he made me pay a deposit of £400
- the bill states £150 for parts, which turns out to be diagnostic time, when I asked about it. Is he being sneaky, or is that just a normal sort of fudge where the invoicing software doesn't quite match what's required of it?

He tells me that the problem was not 'wiring issue to the back lights' but a wiring problem in the electrical part of loom / ECU gearbox - I may be garbling this as I don't really understand it. Is that another way of describing the same problem that you guys thought it might be - or a different problem all together?

 

[g8rpi]

OK, so I have quibbled the bill and am considering trading standards, on 2 counts:
- he made me pay a deposit of £400
- the bill states £150 for parts, which turns out to be diagnostic time, when I asked about it. Is he being sneaky, or is that just a normal sort of fudge where the invoicing software doesn't quite match what's required of it?

He tells me that the problem was not 'wiring issue to the back lights' but a wiring problem in the electrical part of loom / ECU gearbox - I may be garbling this as I don't really understand it. Is that another way of describing the same problem that you guys thought it might be - or a different problem all together?

Hi,
If they put £150 for parts then it should list what those parts were. It sounds like they are fobbing you off. I can't see what they spent £150 on for parts to fix a wiring issue. talk to your local trading standards and have a copy of this thread as it is contempary evidence that you were told it was a problem with the lights. They cannot put hours down as parts, it's false accounting, a serious offence. It could also be VAT fraud as they can claim VAT back on parts cost but not labour.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

Thanks, g8rpi! That's very interesting to know.
While looking over the bill, before taking the car away, I asked him 'what's this, £150 for parts?' and he replied 'oh, that's for the diagnostic time'. So he'd put 3 hours labour under labour, and 3 hours spent diagnosing the problem, under parts - and now I see why! Also, had I not asked, I'd have been none the wiser.
The actual problem - 'wiring problem in the electrical part of loom / ECU gearbox ' - how much *should* that cost to fix? I still think he fleeced me, and with what you've just told me, g8rpi, I'm even more inclined to go to to Trading Standards.

 

[g8rpi]

Thanks, g8rpi! That's very interesting to know.
While looking over the bill, before taking the car away, I asked him 'what's this, £150 for parts?' and he replied 'oh, that's for the diagnostic time'. So he'd put 3 hours labour under labour, and 3 hours spent diagnosing the problem, under parts - and now I see why! Also, had I not asked, I'd have been none the wiser.
The actual problem - 'wiring problem in the electrical part of loom / ECU gearbox ' - how much *should* that cost to fix? I still think he fleeced me, and with what you've just told me, g8rpi, I'm even more inclined to go to to Trading Standards.

Well the description is too vauge, but given that you told them what was wrong, not £400. The actual "repair" would probably take less than an hour with only a few pounds worth of parts (electrical crimps or tags) for a competent mechanic.
Try Googling the garages name to see if anyone else has had problems with them. I think talking to trading standards is a must.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Hellohelenhere]

Thanks Robert. I've had a relay of emails with the guy at the garage today and he is in incoherent ranting mode. e.g:
"Look we where under the impression we needed parts to repair your car which in the end where not needed i have not got a crystal ball or i cannot read into the future
because my computer software that i use to generate invoices does not have a tab for diagnostics or diagnosis thats why and i wanted to be able to show a breakdown of time spent finding the problem and then the time to fix the problem does that now make sense
I should have just put it all down as labour PERHAPS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER FOR YOU TO GRASP"

(I replied to that one in three words: 'yes it would'.)

I don't know whether what I told them was wrong, and what WAS wrong, is the same thing or not - 'loom' and 'ECU' mean nothing to me. Anyway, I think I may go to Trading Standards purely about the invoice issue.
The garage man is super-pissed off that I'm giving him a hard time but really, anyone who wasn't suspicious that the bill came to exactly the same as the exorbitant deposit would have to be an idiot... (*Yes, I am an idiot but even I have my limits).

 

[g8rpi]

Thanks Robert. I've had a relay of emails with the guy at the garage today and he is in incoherent ranting mode.

<SNIP>
I don't know whether what I told them was wrong, and what WAS wrong, is the same thing or not - 'loom' and 'ECU' mean nothing to me. Anyway, I think I may go to Trading Standards purely about the invoice issue.
The garage man is super-pissed off that I'm giving him a hard time but really, anyone who wasn't suspicious that the bill came to exactly the same as the exorbitant deposit would have to be an idiot... (*Yes, I am an idiot but even I have my limits).

A "loom" is the wiring harnes, a collection of wires bundled together and taped up or othewise protected. It also includes connectors "plugs" etc. An ECU is an Electronic (or Engine in earlier usage) Control Unit. We can presume he did not change the gearbox (or any other) ECU as they cost more than £150. A repair to a loom cost typically cosst much less. It sounds like he has admitted (emails are considered evidence) to issuing an inaccurate, if not falsified, invoice. I'd suggst you stop communicating with him until you have spoken to Trading Standards or a legal adviser. Remember that many breakdown cover (AA, RAC) and insurance polices (don't forget household) provide free legal advice.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[CMaughan96]

Now I'm not an expert on anything really, so I don't know much about the initial technical problem.

However just the way that guy was communicating with you is frankly shocking. I'm moderately certain he's being so angry towards you because he
realises he's been found out and wants you to back down.

That's simply not acceptable, and together with the dodgy invoice...

I just wanted to chime in and show my support, cos it sounds like you've been really screwed over. Don't back down over this