Hello guys, so i've replaced the balljoints on my 09 bravo by drilling the rivets out. When i put in the new balljoint with the three bolts provided, it had play of around 2-3 mm. in and out of the control arms, because the bolt diameters were smaller than the holes in the arm and balljoint. My question is - even with the three bolts tightened as much as possible, wont hitting a pothole move the balljoint in or out of the control arm and mess the alignment, or thats how its supposed to fit?
Technical Question after balljoint replacement
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Technical Question after balljoint replacement
If the old ball joint was riveted in I'm not too sure it was designed to be replaced?
If it wasn't meant to be replaced, why would a ball joint be available separately?
Back in the good ol' days, (i.e. when I was young
), Fiat used to supply ball joints as separate parts despite the originals having been rivetted in place e.g. on the 124 models. The replacement procedure was as carried out by the OP - drill out the old rivets and fit the new ball joint in place using nuts and bolts.If the supplied bolts are too loose in the holes, could larger bolts be fitted? - it might be necessary to slightly enlarge the holes using a drill bit to fit the next larger size bolts - e.g. if the existing bolts are 8mm and the holes are 9.5mm, then drill the holes out to 10mm and fit 10mm bolts.
If doing this, be careful in your choice of bolts as regards material strength, iirc, you should use a minimum of grade 8.8 (this should be marked on the bolt head) on suspension applications. Ideally these should be paired with self-locking nuts e.g. Nyloc type. Don't use stainless steel bolts - afaik these may not be sufficiently strong for suspension applications.
I have seen lots of old vw with lower front ball joints bolted to the lower arm , elongated bolt holes in lower arm to allow for a little adjustment. Three bolts and three nuts captive on a triangular plate - vw calculated that would be sufficient to keep the geometry .Thanks for the reply. Just consulted a mechanic and he said that they will definitely move and mess the geometry
Presumably some will be made bolted together to be replaceable the ones on my tipo are at the same time some may be riveted depending on who's mades themIf it wasn't meant to be replaced, why would a ball joint be available separately?
Back in the good ol' days, (i.e. when I was young
If the supplied bolts are too loose in the holes, could larger bolts be fitted? - it might be necessary to slightly enlarge the holes using a drill bit to fit the next larger size bolts - e.g. if the existing bolts are 8mm and the holes are 9.5mm, then drill the holes out to 10mm and fit 10mm bolts.
If doing this, be careful in your choice of bolts as regards material strength, iirc, you should use a minimum of grade 8.8 (this should be marked on the bolt head) on suspension applications. Ideally these should be paired with self-locking nuts e.g. Nyloc type. Don't use stainless steel bolts - afaik these may not be sufficiently strong for suspension applications.
Either way I'd certainly be looking for some larger bolts that have less of a gap around them
The bolts should fit the holes properly.
I would go back to the supplier and query this, arguing that this ball joint is not a suitable replacement for this application.
It is possible that,
a) There are choices, and this is the wrong one.
b) The joint is cheaply made, and the manufacturer did not care about proper fit.
c) Fiat made the rivet holes an odd size, so no standard bolt will fit.
A quick scan online has brought up a lot of different ball joint suppliers. Whilst the pics are small, it does appear that some have standard bolts, while others, the more expensive ones, seem to have shouldered bolts, presumably to specifically fit in the larger holes in the arms.
Shop4Parts, our 'go to' specialist for Fiat parts, do not list separate ball joints on their website. Might be a clue there, or maybe just not listed. They do have a lot more than is on their site, so might be worth giving them a call. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Results&category=18&secondary=29&opts=1121
A loose joint is not safe.
I would go back to the supplier and query this, arguing that this ball joint is not a suitable replacement for this application.
It is possible that,
a) There are choices, and this is the wrong one.
b) The joint is cheaply made, and the manufacturer did not care about proper fit.
c) Fiat made the rivet holes an odd size, so no standard bolt will fit.
A quick scan online has brought up a lot of different ball joint suppliers. Whilst the pics are small, it does appear that some have standard bolts, while others, the more expensive ones, seem to have shouldered bolts, presumably to specifically fit in the larger holes in the arms.
Shop4Parts, our 'go to' specialist for Fiat parts, do not list separate ball joints on their website. Might be a clue there, or maybe just not listed. They do have a lot more than is on their site, so might be worth giving them a call. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Results&category=18&secondary=29&opts=1121
A loose joint is not safe.
Aye Jack, my old (1999) seat Cordoba (rebadged Polo) had this sort of bottom ball joint which I replaced twice during the time I owned it. - The last ones I did are still lying in a "caddy" tray at the back of my workbench which reminds me I really must take them to the council recycling next time I go - The car went to the "happy hunting grounds" in 2016! Being able to unbolt them was always an option if the ball joint pin was corroded into the upright, although usually, unless very new, at least one bolt would snap!
Edit: to the best of my recollection the bolts on the Cordoba were a nice snug fit. I wouldn't want any "slop" in them as I'm pretty sure they would move no matter how tight you managed to do them up.
The joints are riveted on many arms, as the production can be automated more easily, and therefore cheaper. It has long been the case that rivets are drilled and replaced with bolts, so holes should be 'normal' sizes. My 1984 Fiat Argenta had riveted top ball joints. (Double wishbone) They were a challenge to drill out without removing the arm from the car, but the bolts were a snug fit. Special shouldered bolts I think, although a long time ago.
I remember, back in the seventies, some OE replacement joints came with new rivets. Pure silliness, as the forces needed to effect a proper riveted joint were beyond most garages, especially if the arm was not removed from the car. Aftermarket replacements were supplied with bolts.
As far as my experience goes, all VW joints are bolted from new, so VW are not looking to save the few pennies of a riveted original arm. Some Peugeots are riveted whilst others are bolted. Depends on OE manufacturer I think.
I remember, back in the seventies, some OE replacement joints came with new rivets. Pure silliness, as the forces needed to effect a proper riveted joint were beyond most garages, especially if the arm was not removed from the car. Aftermarket replacements were supplied with bolts.
As far as my experience goes, all VW joints are bolted from new, so VW are not looking to save the few pennies of a riveted original arm. Some Peugeots are riveted whilst others are bolted. Depends on OE manufacturer I think.
vexorg
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I've had a golf and A3, replaced the balljoints all with bolt on ones, never had an issue.
Likewise for vauxhall, factory ones are rivited, but you can buy a few different makes of bolt on ones.
Personally, I'd have more faith in bolts holding it in place than rivets longterm.
Likewise for vauxhall, factory ones are rivited, but you can buy a few different makes of bolt on ones.
Personally, I'd have more faith in bolts holding it in place than rivets longterm.