Tuning Newbie with an idea

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Hi guys, firstly I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this, if not then please move it, thanks!
Im new to the forum, and having failed to decide between a panda 4x4 and a panda 100hp, I had an idea to combind the two, removing the flaws of each.
The 100hp is fast enough, but it spins its wheels alot in the wet and the suspensin is a bit too firm, everything else is excellent. The panda 4x4 is slow. Like really slow. But it is excellent all the time apart from being slow and underpowered. Ive got a fast car, so I'm not after a road rocket, just something thats exactly like a panda 4x4 only with enough power to keep up with traffic on steep hills etc.
My two ideas are: Buy both pandas and put the 1.4 (100hp) engine in the 4x4. Does anyone know if the 6 speed gearbox can be used? Or is the 5 speed of the 4x4 part of the AWD system? Added benefit of getting the bigger brakes and nicer interior from the 100hp, maybe the wider arches too?
Alternative idea: Buy a panda 4x4 1.3 diesel and modify to make more power.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, Ide love to hear them! Also if anyone has already tried this (the 1.4 4x4 or tuning the 1.3 diesel) do let me know!

 

[koalar]

If you want a quick car buy a quick car. It’s cheaper to buy then make. It’s cheaper to insure stock than modified. You can pick up cars up to and over twice the power of a 100hp £1.5K. Brakes, suspension, clutch, gearbox, driveshafts and so on are already sorted


Just for the of doing something yourself. Diesel would be the way to go.

 

[mj2k]

Hi, if you're the same guy who's posting on the Legacy forum, the Panda will be unnecessary tbh - with a manual Legacy on standard suspension (or maybe an Outback) it'll already be better in mud / snow than 90% of other cars out there (certainly better than modern Discos / Rangies in my experience). The 4x4 system was designed to haul Subarus up Mount Fuji in the late 60s for the Japanese electrical industry and hasn't changed much since; it's an 'agricultural' 4x4 system rather than a sports one, the modern viscous centre diff is the only real compromise for performance, and if you were to get a 4 speed auto, you're one switch and 2 wires away from having a locking centre diff. Lowered Legacys on summer tyres won't be much use in the snow of course though, and the price you pay for having a 'proper' 4x4 system is truly appalling fuel economy

One thing I have been contemplating is putting the 4x4 system form a Panda on an Abarth (or swapping the 1.4 turbo into a Panda) but they're not really designed for high performance so the high centre of gravity might make them a slightly dodgy toy...

Edit: forgot to mention the 4 speed auto is only fitted to the 2.0 / 2.5 UK spec, and the manual version of those cars has hi/low range on the gearbox, like an old school 'series' Landrover

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Hi, if you're the same guy who's posting on the Legacy forum, the Panda will be unnecessary tbh - with a manual Legacy on standard suspension (or maybe an Outback) it'll already be better in mud / snow than 90% of other cars out there (certainly better than modern Discos / Rangies in my experience). The 4x4 system was designed to haul Subarus up Mount Fuji in the late 60s for the Japanese electrical industry and hasn't changed much since; it's an 'agricultural' 4x4 system rather than a sports one. Lowered Legacys on summer tyres won't be much use in the snow of course though

One thing I have been contemplating is putting the 4x4 system form a Panda on an Abarth (or swapping the 1.4 turbo into a Panda) but they're not really designed for high performance so the high centre of gravity might make them a slightly dodgy toy...

Yes, its me, how could you tell?!
The subaru is the fast road car, the panda is the economical one, and probably the one that gets the salty road duties. I dont really need an offroad car, I'll proably sell my D1 soon because even the longest greenlanes are quite a short walk. If I do miss greenlaning, I could always keep the 4x4 suspension for the panda, it would do 95% of the greenlanes ive been on, and 100% of them with a bash plate and some maxxtracks

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

If you want a quick car buy a quick car. It’s cheaper to buy then make. It’s cheaper to insure stock than modified. You can pick up cars up to and over twice the power of a 100hp £1.5K. Brakes, suspension, clutch, gearbox, driveshafts and so on are already sorted


Just for the of doing something yourself. Diesel would be the way to go.

Its not so much a quick car, plans are in place fora 250bhp+ subaru for that, its more to have a uniqe economical small car with adequate power and loads of grip, without eating fuel.

 

[A3jeroen]

A Panda 100HP on the right tires will do great in the rain. Had mine for 8 years and never found the suspension too hard. And I'm not young.

gr J

 

[mj2k]

Yes, its me, how could you tell?!
The subaru is the fast road car, the panda is the economical one, and probably the one that gets the salty road duties. I dont really need an offroad car, I'll proably sell my D1 soon because even the longest greenlanes are quite a short walk. If I do miss greenlaning, I could always keep the 4x4 suspension for the panda, it would do 95% of the greenlanes ive been on, and 100% of them with a bash plate and some maxxtracks

Your username was a bit of a clue

I did rather like my S1 Disco for green laning (judging by the number I see stranded in the snow around here the later chunkier ones are either not so good or are driven by complete incompetents). A manual 2.0i or 2.5 Legacy will have a hi/low lever which would be rather familiar to you, but they are lacking a diff lock and though reasonably rapid aren't the high performance models.

Economy's definitely not a Subaru's strong point whatever you buy though (the diesel loses more money than it saves since you'd be spending a fortune on new engines) so a standard 4x4 Panda would be the way to go I reckon without risking getting crucified by the insurance costs or putting your life in your hands every time you approach a tricky corner, or alternately get a standard Panda 100bhp or 500 (1.4 or twinair?) for economy, and rely on the Subaru when the going gets tough. Or if you can find one how about one of the boxy original Panda 4x4s? Not exactly fast, but they'd leave even the S1 Disco for dead on a snowy mountain...

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

A Panda 100HP on the right tires will do great in the rain. Had mine for 8 years and never found the suspension too hard. And I'm not young.

gr J

Pulling away quickly from a standstill in a fwd car on a hill in the rain just doesnt work unless its got some sort of traction control. Similarly when powering out of a corner, the inside wheel spins and you go nowhere. Here in north Wales we get an awful lot of rain (road isnt dry for the majority of the year). Also they are increadibly bumpy, and the standard 100hp on low profile tyres is just a little too harsh, especially with more than one person in the car, or any mount of stuff. The 4x4 is a much better car for my needs, but its too lacking in power.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Your username was a bit of a clue

I did rather like my S1 Disco for green laning (judging by the number I see stranded in the snow around here the later chunkier ones are either not so good or are driven by complete incompetents). A manual 2.0i or 2.5 Legacy will have a hi/low lever which would be rather familiar to you, but they are lacking a diff lock and though reasonably rapid aren't the high performance models.

Economy's definitely not a Subaru's strong point whatever you buy though (the diesel loses more money than it saves since you'd be spending a fortune on new engines) so a standard 4x4 Panda would be the way to go I reckon without risking getting crucified by the insurance costs or putting your life in your hands every time you approach a tricky corner, or alternately get a standard Panda 100bhp or 500 (1.4 or twinair?) for economy, and rely on the Subaru when the going gets tough. Or if you can find one how about one of the boxy original Panda 4x4s? Not exactly fast, but they'd leave even the S1 Disco for dead on a snowy mountain...

The later discos have crap tyres, thats probably why (combined with the incompetance of the user). Honestly for me there is no point keeping a 14mpg truck that does walking distance offroad every now and then and is quite bad on the road the rest of the time. The subaru is just for speed and practicallity, its going to be kept nice and clean and shiny, the panda is the "beater car" I suppose, I just cant decide if I should start with a petrol or a diesel one, with the aim of having the performance of a normal car, and hopefully good enough fuel consuption to offset that of the subaru. Ive heard about the diesel subarus and their crankshaft snapping, dpf blocking, turbo leaking issues, so theyre being avoided. As far as insurance goes, thats an issue for later. All I'll say is nobody I know declares their mods, a friend has what is officially a standard blue defender 90 2.5NA, but is actually lifted and gray and has a 300tdi disco engine and is very much not standard, but nobody cares, and my hypothetical panda would appear very stnadard.

 

[A3jeroen]

Chip a JTD to 100Hp and it's not slow anymore.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Chip a JTD to 100Hp and it's not slow anymore.

How much power can be squeezed out of the JTD with a remap, and how much with a bigger turbo, intercooler, injectors ect?

 

[koalar]

How much power can be squeezed out of the JTD with a remap, and how much with a bigger turbo, intercooler, injectors ect?

Google is you friend

But in the punto evo in standard it’s over 90BHP and 200 torque which is already in the 100hp ball park

I believe with standard boost 110 and 250 torque is possible


Much more than that and it’s going to the next weak spot, gearbox


Although I take specs from people trying to sell a service with a pinch of salt. No doubt someone has posted some true rolling road figures somewhere

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Google is you friend

But in the punto evo in standard it’s over 90BHP and 200 torque which is already in the 100hp ball park

I believe with standard boost 110 and 250 torque is possible


Much more than that and it’s going to the next weak spot, gearbox


Although I take specs from people trying to sell a service with a pinch of salt. No doubt someone has posted some true rolling road figures somewhere

Thanks! That sounds like there isnt much point in doing anything more than a remap if the driveline cant handle anymore, also it shows that theres little point in putting a 1.4 or certainly the 1.4 turbo, unless the (presumably stronger) 6 speed from a 100hp or abarth could be bolted to the 4x4 system?

 

[koalar]

Thanks! That sounds like there isnt much point in doing anything more than a remap if the driveline cant handle anymore, also it shows that theres little point in putting a 1.4 or certainly the 1.4 turbo, unless the (presumably stronger) 6 speed from a 100hp or abarth could be bolted to the 4x4 system?

arbarth does have different and uprated gearbox

the 100hp has a different input bearing and an extra gear tagged onto the back of a standard gearbox

Its possible to uprate the bearings on a standard 5 speed. Not sure on cost or the max torque you can then put through it. Torque is what generally kills a gearbox. a remap is going to add about 25%. The main reason a remap works is because the manufactures don't want everything maxed out and have loads of warranty repairs.

 

[DaveMcT]

The 100bhp 1.4 engine will probably fit the 4x4 gearbox. However the first gear is very low so you have a big gap to 2nd gear and wider spaced gears after that. Mid range torque from the 1.4 is not much better than the 1.2/60 but it keeps on going where the 1.2 fizzles out. Standard Panda springs will reduce the 4x4 body roll - at expense of ground clearance of course.

If you want to know the effort needed to put a big 4x4 under a small car body, check out Project Binky. It's been years in the making and still not done.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

arbarth does have different and uprated gearbox

the 100hp has a different input bearing and an extra gear tagged onto the back of a standard gearbox

Its possible to uprate the bearings on a standard 5 speed. Not sure on cost or the max torque you can then put through it. Torque is what generally kills a gearbox. a remap is going to add about 25%. The main reason a remap works is because the manufactures don't want everything maxed out and have loads of warranty repairs.

So from what your saying the 6 speed 100hp box wont fit the 4x4 system? And anything more than a remap on the 1.3 diesel and I'm risking it wth the gearbox?

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

The 100bhp 1.4 engine will probably fit the 4x4 gearbox. However the first gear is very low so you have a big gap to 2nd gear and wider spaced gears after that. Mid range torque from the 1.4 is not much better than the 1.2/60 but it keeps on going where the 1.2 fizzles out. Standard Panda springs will reduce the 4x4 body roll - at expense of ground clearance of course.

If you want to know the effort needed to put a big 4x4 under a small car body, check out Project Binky. It's been years in the making and still not done.

Have seen project binky, what a nightmare, but thats why Im starting with a small 4x4 and making it gruntier.
Okay Im confused. In the panda 4x4, is the 5 speed box part of the 4x4 system, or can I use the 6 speed box from the 100hp?

 

[koalar]

So from what your saying the 6 speed 100hp box wont fit the 4x4 system? And anything more than a remap on the 1.3 diesel and I'm risking it wth the gearbox?

nope

I am say the 5 speed and 6 speed boxes are virtual identical(a bit longer) but the 6 speed has a beefed up input shaft bearing in the 100HP

I have no idea how swappable they are

I am saying torque is what kills a gearbox. and the Arbarth 500 uses a different box at 206nm. The figures quoted for a 1.3 remap are normally 200nm

you also need to watch the drive shafts the 100HP isnt the same as the 1.1 or 1.2. As far as I remember they are the same length but the number of spines are different just dont remember if it was the inner or outer ends.

 

[DaveMcT]

The differential end of the 100HP six speed gearbox "looks" the same as the 1.2-60 gearbox. Any differences in driveshaft splines are important to know as new 100HP shafts are silly money and you cant buy replacement inner CV joints. I have not checked them side by side.

If the bolts line up, the 4x4 gearbox is interchangeable other gearboxes only if you want to lose the 4x4. Look at the ePER url from the forum and you'll see.

The Panda Cross is a 4x4 with the 1.3 diesel. All others have the 1.2 petrol engine. Good luck buying a Cross for "reasonable" cost. They are quite rare and hold their value. Also bear in mind the front bumper and headlights are made of unobtanium and priced accordingly.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

The differential end of the 100HP six speed gearbox "looks" the same as the 1.2-60 gearbox. Any differences in driveshaft splines are important to know as new 100HP shafts are silly money and you cant buy replacement inner CV joints. I have not checked them side by side.

If the bolts line up, the 4x4 gearbox is interchangeable other gearboxes only if you want to lose the 4x4. Look at the ePER url from the forum and you'll see.

The Panda Cross is a 4x4 with the 1.3 diesel. All others have the 1.2 petrol engine. Good luck buying a Cross for "reasonable" cost. They are quite rare and hold their value. Also bear in mind the front bumper and headlights are made of unobtanium and priced accordingly.

Okay so help me out here, in the 4x4, does the drive go engine->gearbox->4wd->shafts->diffs->shafts->wheels (like almost every single 4x4 I can think of) or does it go engine->gearbox->front diff-front wheels
->4wd->rear diff??
The idea with the petrol panda was to go from the standard: engine (1.2) -> gearbox (5 speed) -> 4wd system -> diffs (1.2 4x4) ->wheels
To: engine (1.4) -> gearbox (6 speed) -> 4wd system -> diffs (1.2 4x4) -> wheels
Why would I need the driveshafts from the 100hp? Thanks!