£10,000 in parts for a broken wire

[g8rpi]

I hate it when people just change parts with no evidence that they are faulty. I have a Pico Technology Automotive oscilloscope kit (and a couple of their non-automotive units) so get their newsletter etc. They just had this case study on a Ducato. www.picoauto.com/library/case-studi...ter-drift?mc_cid=6a0a00d16e&mc_eid=42dc796438
The previous "fixers", they don't say if it was a dealer or still under warranty, but they had changed over £10,000 worth of parts without fixing it. Turned out to be a broken wire feeding 12V to the ECU. PicoAuto is great and easy for this but even with just a multimeter and Multiecuscan you could have found it. Sounds like the first garage didn't do any proper diagnostics

Robert G8RPI.

 

[s130]

Well today the well trained technicians who have absolute pure basic knowledge without the assistance of fancy kit are sadly becoming an extinct breed.

Today it is all about "Plug and Pray" diagnostics all geared for maximum revenue to dealer and manufacturer.

Sort of goes like this:

o shorter training programs
o kit purchase
o subscription fees to manufacturer's systems
o quicker wrong diagnosis
o slick wrong part ordering
o more part revenue for manufacturer
o garage gets paid anyway (sorry sir/madam there were multiple component failures)
o etc.

Brand damage is never taken into consideration and there is a captive market because all (well possibly most) brands play the same game.

What really gets me upset and angry is that despite being a fully qualified professional engineer, having also worked on, maintained and fixed motor vehicles for over 46 years and have diagnostic kit that I know how to use but never take for being the absolute truth diagnosis that somes garages/dealers over the years have treated me with contempt. "Yes sir, no sir, ……", read we are the experts, read we ignore you.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I hate it when people just change parts with no evidence that they are faulty. I have a Pico Technology Automotive oscilloscope kit (and a couple of their non-automotive units) so get their newsletter etc. They just had this case study on a Ducato. www.picoauto.com/library/case-studi...ter-drift?mc_cid=6a0a00d16e&mc_eid=42dc796438
The previous "fixers", they don't say if it was a dealer or still under warranty, but they had changed over £10,000 worth of parts without fixing it. Turned out to be a broken wire feeding 12V to the ECU. PicoAuto is great and easy for this but even with just a multimeter and Multiecuscan you could have found it. Sounds like the first garage didn't do any proper diagnostics

Robert G8RPI.

Sir, I am green with envy! I'm a relative novice with an oscilloscope but would love the chance to learn more. Zero chance of owning the Pico though. I know two workshops that have it but can't get them to let me "play" - and I don't blame them.

 

[g8rpi]

Sir, I am green with envy! I'm a relative novice with an oscilloscope but would love the chance to learn more. Zero chance of owning the Pico though. I know two workshops that have it but can't get them to let me "play" - and I don't blame them.

Unfortunatly their cheapest basic unit is over £500. However don't say zero. I have a midrange 4 channel kit but only paid a fraction of the £1800 new cost. It's frustrating that automotive software won't work with the non automotive 'scopes but seeing how much the software does and the amount of development required I can undertand it. It's a "glass half full thing, it's good they don't charge so much for th standard units. I do have a "spare" 2 channel 'scope unit that works with the automotive software. It's an earlier unit and only works on a laptop with a "proper" parallel printer port and does not support the latest automated diagnostics software package, just the Pico automotive software. It's basically brand new. I was thinking of putting it together as a package with an older laptop and putting it on ebay. It doesn't oue me much so if you fancy having a go with it le me know. It would save me the trouble of putting a package together.

Robert G8RPI

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Unfortunatly their cheapest basic unit is over £500. However don't say zero. I have a midrange 4 channel kit but only paid a fraction of the £1800 new cost. It's frustrating that automotive software won't work with the non automotive 'scopes but seeing how much the software does and the amount of development required I can undertand it. It's a "glass half full thing, it's good they don't charge so much for th standard units. I do have a "spare" 2 channel 'scope unit that works with the automotive software. It's an earlier unit and only works on a laptop with a "proper" parallel printer port and does not support the latest automated diagnostics software package, just the Pico automotive software. It's basically brand new. I was thinking of putting it together as a package with an older laptop and putting it on ebay. It doesn't oue me much so if you fancy having a go with it le me know. It would save me the trouble of putting a package together.

Robert G8RPI

That's a very kind offer. Thank you very much. Unfortunately Mrs Jock is angling to go on a Rhine cruise to celebrate her 70th birthday later this year so I don't think there's even the slightest glimmer of hope for me. Doubt if I could even order an ice cream just now!

 

[Michael Dranfield]

Well today the well trained technicians who have absolute pure basic knowledge without the assistance of fancy kit are sadly becoming an extinct breed.

Today it is all about "Plug and Pray" diagnostics all geared for maximum revenue to dealer and manufacturer.

Sort of goes like this:

o shorter training programs
o kit purchase
o subscription fees to manufacturer's systems
o quicker wrong diagnosis
o slick wrong part ordering
o more part revenue for manufacturer
o garage gets paid anyway (sorry sir/madam there were multiple component failures)
o etc.

Brand damage is never taken into consideration and there is a captive market because all (well possibly most) brands play the same game.

What really gets me upset and angry is that despite being a fully qualified professional engineer, having also worked on, maintained and fixed motor vehicles for over 46 years and have diagnostic kit that I know how to use but never take for being the absolute truth diagnosis that somes garages/dealers over the years have treated me with contempt. "Yes sir, no sir, ……", read we are the experts, read we ignore you.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here all garages I have seen seem to employ young kids,in fact when I had a problem with my wife's punto evo I had to go a main dealer for the repair and the so called master mechanic , presumably this is the title for the most experienced mechanic looked like he had just left school, as I see it there is no substitute for experience.

 

[portland_bill]

It is still disappointing that garages go the component replacement route, rather than pause and think first.
Having spent quite a few years working with BL/Rover warranty, even back in the early eighties, if multiple components were changed, they would often only pay for the last part fitted, as that was the fix.
Made the dealers pay attention.

When the Maestro/Montego hit, with its electronic choke control, and electronic ignition, most faults were poor connections. Yet still garages would replace complete control units, or even complete carburettors, to have the claim rejected. Merely unplugging and replugging would have effected a cure.

 

[varesecrazy]

It is still disappointing that garages go the component replacement route, rather than pause and think first.
Having spent quite a few years working with BL/Rover warranty, even back in the early eighties, if multiple components were changed, they would often only pay for the last part fitted, as that was the fix.
Made the dealers pay attention.

When the Maestro/Montego hit, with its electronic choke control, and electronic ignition, most faults were poor connections. Yet still garages would replace complete control units, or even complete carburettors, to have the claim rejected. Merely unplugging and replugging would have effected a cure.

Not dissimilar to 'a new ECU fixed it..'

Fully agree.
my only REAL electrical issue in last 20 years of FIATS.
A temp. Related immobiliser issue.

I took it to a local place.. who had appeared intelligent on an earlier visit.

Told them 'it Was NOT the key chip..'as I had both factory keys.

What did they do for the day.??

RECODE BOTH KEYS £120 bill.. and the fault actually appeared WORSE.

after another 6 months 'my wife and I' discovered it was a bad relay.. only switched at cabin temps of 20'c or more




A guy I work with.. has a family business fixing.. 'unfixable' £40k German cars.

People trailer them hundreds of miles to him after many failed main dealer visits
'COMPUTER SAYS NO..!!'

Saw the same where BMW uk couldnt fix a 4 pot petrol.. new looms fitted.. next in line was a new engine..

so they essentially gifted a replacement car.
Which has actually lasted

 

[portland_bill]

Not just the motor trade.
1986 we moved into an 18-month old flat in Weymouth. A few months later, the boiler (just instant water heater, nothing else) developed a drip.
I removed the cover to see water easing from a hole.
At the bottom of the valve assembly there is a diaphragm that moves when water flows. This lifts a spindle, only a mm or so diameter, that passes through a seal to operate the gas valve, and light the burners. The housing between the two valves has a small hole half-way up, like water pumps in cars, and that was where the water leak was. Needs a new seal?
Not wishing to mess with gas, I, naively called British Gas, (other, more competent and cheaper alternatives are out there).
A few days later, a young boy arrived, borrowed my step ladder and removed the cover. Looked puzzled, pointed vaguely towards the whole thing and declared it needed a new one. It later turned out he ordered the whole dual valve assembly, cost, hundreds.
A week later, half-day holiday, waited in all day, no visit. Next day, phoned them, pathetic apology, they'd lost it. No call, no visit to explain, just didn't bother coming.
So I called the manufacturer support. A knowledgeable person, knew the issue, explained that a new diaphragm/spindle and seal plate above it were needed, could replace myself, only six screws and a bit of water to catch, gas valve not affected, so no need for qualified or licensed operative. Parts in post, arrived next day in a jiffy bag, cost, less than a fiver.

A couple of the six 4mm dia screws put up a fight, nothing I wasn't used to on cars, half an hour of work, job done.

Called British Gas to cancel their re-ordering of the part. They were shocked at the ease and cost of the repair. I imaging they lost a bit on that failed job.

 

[andydiver]

So to further the digression we have a 10 year old Vaillent boiler we had fitted new. Before Christmas noticed the temp display hips about. Christmas morning did not fire fault P62. Googled to find probably a power rail fault on the pcb. I could measure and fix that myself.... Called my normal plumber, guy who put it in, and charges 60 to service it each year. He says, very professionally, that he cannot fix it cheaper than Vaillent direct. I go online. Book a fixed cost repair at 300. Book an visit. He came exactly on time, took 20 mins to replace the pcb, full service, left. He would have replaced all but the heat exchanger if he had to, and it now has a full 1 year warranty. Think that is what I call customer service all round.

 

[g8rpi]

When the Maestro/Montego hit, with its electronic choke control, and electronic ignition, most faults were poor connections. Yet still garages would replace complete control units, or even complete carburettors, to have the claim rejected. Merely unplugging and replugging would have effected a cure.

That jogged a memory, I fixed a coulple those ECUs. IIRC there were two indications of the fault poor starting or running with the temp gauge still working and poor starting with the temperature gauge not working. The first was a faulty stepper motor driver IC (choke stuck) the second was a faulty ADC (temp sensor input) IC. Both ICs were "hous marked but I'd pick up faulty ECU's from the local main dealer and as long as a I had 3 with two different faults I could make one good one. The ADC chip was easist to change.

I saw Montego Vanden Plas saloon (no EFI badge) a couple of weeks ago. Obviousy a in use car not a collector the guy probably had it from new. If "How Many Left" is to be beleived it's the only one on the road. The was a spell of taking the diesels and putting the engines in Land Rovers, as it was a BL product the LR was still OK for LR competions.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[varesecrazy]

Boilers oh yes..

Our old one was @10 years got condemned..
Oh joy.

Found a BIG utility company offering 2 years interest free on new boilers.. result.

2 days to replumb and install comission. 2 days later.. it was condened by transco.. was leaking internally.

Realised the 2 fitters hadnt plumbed it properly AND it had an internal leak.

This 'German ' boiler was a flash bit of kit.. basically had a lambda probe.. and therefore metered fuelling.. like a car

Wheras most boilers use fixed jets.. like a mower...

Worked well and CLEAN..CHEAP to run for 24 months.. then wouldnt fire up reliably. New PCB.
6months.. then 3 months PCB after PCB..

Eventually.. they sent a van that didnt need to do 100 miles to get to us. Young new starter from 10 miles away.

Looked at boiler.. asked 2 questions..

Then said ok .. I can do this.. it is full of limescale.

The heatexchanger was coated.. so flame timed out.. as it did little water warming.. basically Calgon and compressed air got it going again.

Compressed air?

He brought a 200 ml can

I provided a 100l reservoir.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Not just the motor trade.
1986 we moved into an 18-month old flat in Weymouth. A few months later, the boiler (just instant water heater, nothing else) developed a drip.
I removed the cover to see water easing from a hole.
At the bottom of the valve assembly there is a diaphragm that moves when water flows. This lifts a spindle, only a mm or so diameter, that passes through a seal to operate the gas valve, and light the burners. The housing between the two valves has a small hole half-way up, like water pumps in cars, and that was where the water leak was. Needs a new seal?
Not wishing to mess with gas, I, naively called British Gas, (other, more competent and cheaper alternatives are out there).
A few days later, a young boy arrived, borrowed my step ladder and removed the cover. Looked puzzled, pointed vaguely towards the whole thing and declared it needed a new one. It later turned out he ordered the whole dual valve assembly, cost, hundreds.
A week later, half-day holiday, waited in all day, no visit. Next day, phoned them, pathetic apology, they'd lost it. No call, no visit to explain, just didn't bother coming.
So I called the manufacturer support. A knowledgeable person, knew the issue, explained that a new diaphragm/spindle and seal plate above it were needed, could replace myself, only six screws and a bit of water to catch, gas valve not affected, so no need for qualified or licensed operative. Parts in post, arrived next day in a jiffy bag, cost, less than a fiver.

A couple of the six 4mm dia screws put up a fight, nothing I wasn't used to on cars, half an hour of work, job done.

Called British Gas to cancel their re-ordering of the part. They were shocked at the ease and cost of the repair. I imaging they lost a bit on that failed job.

Me too PB. Our house is of the modern type with no fireplace in the living room. This has always been an issue for Mrs J so, about 12 years ago, we had a super dooper, hole in the wall, turbo, expensive (have you noticed that adding the word "turbo" to anything makes it cost more?) living flame gas fire installed. (I struggle to justify £300 for a compressor but £1200 for a fire is evidently a bargain?). Last winter, in the coldest possible weather, two days after our central heating failed (blocked pipes - took 2 weeks to sort) the gas fire packed in. "These were never a good design pal, too complicated aren't they". Silly money quoted for repair so decided to have a new, simpler type installed. Man and "boy" turned up to do the install. To be fair they did a good neat job and the "man" seemed to know exactly what he was doing. The "boy" though worried me. As the "man" was tidying up his tools etc after the install he instructed the "boy" to fit the front trim and glass front. The glass panel, which sits against a gas tight seal, is held in by 8 (I think) small posi machine screws. He aggressively "attacked" these by fitting each screw to the end of a large (overkill) power driver and ramming them into their threads. It will be a miracle if some are not cross threaded! It has to be serviced once yearly to comply with it's 5 year warranty so I will be getting the same people back to do it and pointing this out before they start - just in case!

The other incident worthy of mention involved our central heating boiler many years ago. It was a quite sophisticated (computer controlled) Potterton wall mounted balance flue design. The fireup procedure was, when triggered by the thermostat, 1. fan starts. 2. the positive pressure in the boiler casing caused by the fan is detected by a diaphragm switch which lights up the pilot. 3. after a short wait while the pilot heats the safety filament, the main burner lights off and the boiler runs. What it was doing was 1. fan starts. 2. you could hear the solenoid click which should have initiated gas to the pilot, so I assume diaphragm switch was ok, but no pilot flame so no follow on to main burner. That's OK though we had (but no longer) the all singing all dancing cover policy! After a short wait a smart young man appeared (always suspicious of smart tradesmen. I was never smart, always had dirt under my nails and clean but desheveled clothing!) removed the boiler casing, rounding off the head of one of the fixing screws in the process, turned the power on (he had, at least, killed it whilst removing the case) at which the fan started up, and started probing around with his multimeter. A few minutes later he announced he had to get a part from his van. Ten minutes later couldn't find it so was going to have to go to the main stores for it and he disappeared. about 3 hours later he hadn't reappeared so I rang the emergency line. They had no idea but would ring back. By now it was well into the evening and we were all, Mrs J, me, two youngsters and a new baby, huddled round a 1KW convector heater in the livingroom. Eventually they rang back to say the part needed was on back order and expected to arrive in about 2 weeks!!! In the mean time they would lend us a couple of electric heaters. What can you do? we took the heaters. (The electric meter went mad, spinning round like a spinning top) After some days, with a very upset Mrs J "encouraging" me, I rang for an update only to be told it was going to take longer for the part to come than thought! So what is this rare part we need (expecting it to be a circuit board or something deeply technical) Fan Motor came the reply! How can that be? I asked, the motor runs fine. Well that's what our engineer has specified I was told, implying that I was an incapable idiot. I'm 99.9% sure it's not the motor can you send another engineer to double check as my families health is going to suffer soon. Afraid not sir, our experts really know what they are doing. I put the phone down before I swore at the poor woman. Mrs J was greatly distressed when I told her so I went to roost in the garage whilst she calmed down and got to thinking - It really can't be the fan if it runs when switched on can it? So, as no interference with the gas is involved, I stripped the fan from the casing, (he had conveniently left the casing front cover on the floor when he departed) took it through to the garage and clamped it in my vice. The label on the case said 230v so I connected mains leads to it and, standing well back because I didn't know if the chassis might be live, and with it running through an RCD, I switched on. Guess what? it ran great. Rang the gas company back and after they got over admonishing me for the risk I took and after I got a bit upset, they admitted that their man's diagnosis could perhaps stand confirmation, especially as I was obviously so upset and they didn't want to cause me distress!! Very quickly a different engineer arrived and within a couple of minutes diagnosed a fault in the control board (a well known fault he said) got a new circuit board from his van and we were up and running again within the hour! - I despair!

PS. Remember those stepper motor problems very well. Seem to remember there was a kit, eventually, to convert back to a manual choke. Did you have a lot of trouble with the electronic dash? we had several where "Chaplets", as they were called I seem to remember, dropped out and a whole new dash had to be fitted to repair? I myself never got involved so I'm only speaking from what our sparks talked about.

 

[portland_bill]

I have a Potterton, installed late 1995. Been a real gem and still running.

About five years ago, it started running erratically. Local plumber arrived, said balanced flue rotted through. Mostly a standard part, fits many makes. Collected a new one, fitted the inner only, as the outer was fine and cemented into the wall. He said the solenoids may fail shortly, as they had been clicking a lot and that can kill them.
Replaced the solenoids a fortnight later.

About 18 months ago, fan started squeaking. Cover off, WD40 onto the shaft, all quiet. A few hours later, squeaks again. Silicone spray, better than WD40, all quiet for 24 hours. Meanwhile new motor and gaskets on order.
Repeat spray each evening for two days, then fit new fan.
All well for a couple of days, then, like Jock's, fan would start, then all would shut down again. Google said PCB. Often a result of fan seizure.
Weather very cold.
Options:
Internet - send old one back for refurb, timescale 7-10 days.
- buy refurbed with surcharge, refundable on return of old one, delivery 3-5 days.
Plumbase has a major distribution centre about 8 miles away, also sell to public. Brand new, on the shelf, twice the price, but instantly available. Off we went, round trip about 40 minutes. Took less than half an hour and all running sweetly again.

As long as you don't have to touch the gas stuff, the rest is no more complicated than car stuff.

New boilers are all 'condensing'. Taller profile, so rearrange plumbing, maybe different flue hole in wall, needs a drain. I'll keep this one going as long as poss. Hopefully move house before any further failures.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have a Potterton, installed late 1995. Been a real gem and still running.

About five years ago, it started running erratically. Local plumber arrived, said balanced flue rotted through. Mostly a standard part, fits many makes. Collected a new one, fitted the inner only, as the outer was fine and cemented into the wall. He said the solenoids may fail shortly, as they had been clicking a lot and that can kill them.
Replaced the solenoids a fortnight later.

About 18 months ago, fan started squeaking. Cover off, WD40 onto the shaft, all quiet. A few hours later, squeaks again. Silicone spray, better than WD40, all quiet for 24 hours. Meanwhile new motor and gaskets on order.
Repeat spray each evening for two days, then fit new fan.
All well for a couple of days, then, like Jock's, fan would start, then all would shut down again. Google said PCB. Often a result of fan seizure.
Weather very cold.
Options:
Internet - send old one back for refurb, timescale 7-10 days.
- buy refurbed with surcharge, refundable on return of old one, delivery 3-5 days.
Plumbase has a major distribution centre about 8 miles away, also sell to public. Brand new, on the shelf, twice the price, but instantly available. Off we went, round trip about 40 minutes. Took less than half an hour and all running sweetly again.

As long as you don't have to touch the gas stuff, the rest is no more complicated than car stuff.

New boilers are all 'condensing'. Taller profile, so rearrange plumbing, maybe different flue hole in wall, needs a drain. I'll keep this one going as long as poss. Hopefully move house before any further failures.

Aye Bill, The Potterton - just remembered it was a "Netaheat" - was much simpler than the Worcester Bosch we now have. Basically just a big lump of hollow cast iron with a flame under it! Took two men all their time to carry it out the back door! I remember the service engineer saying he quite liked them but with one reservation. Because the enclosure was positive pressurized relative to the room there was always the potential for carbon monoxide leaks to take place!

We have stayed with a stored hot water system (not combi) and the new Worcester, which was fitted about 5 years ago, is definitely saving us quite a bit of money. It's very noticeable that the old Potterton was either on or off. The Worcester varies it's flame depending on demand. I notice also that the pump turns off when not needed whereas with the old system the pump would run only controlled by the timer. I doubt though that it will be as long lived as I read condensing boilers tend to corrode. Still, at least our water is very soft up here so no limescale problems for us!

luckily I made friends with a chap, a few years ago now, who maintains and repairs, amongst others, the entire heating system at our local hospital. As you can imagine, he really knows his stuff. No more expensive service contracts for me any more, just need to be careful not to fall out with him!

 

[andydiver]

As this is now a boiler thread... Highly recommend a new condensing boiler, a Vaillent would should be about 2000 fitted which sounds a lot but would almost halve your gas bill for the same heating or water over a very old non condenser. So over 10 years a significant amount of cash. Put another way, need for an expensive repair of old would be a good time to change...

 

[Michael Dranfield]

We're still on the first boiler that was fitted when the house was new built over 22 years and when it started playing up intermittently​ not firing up my wife called a family friend who is a gas fitter,he took a look and said it's the control PCB get your husband to fix it ! I found a relay wouldn't always shut fully closed as it tried to fire up but the relay wasn't the problem a dried up electrolytic capacitor had resulted in a low coil voltage on the relay so it cost nothing to fix.Chances are if we had called anybody else out they would have declared it beyond repair on the grounds a complete new PCB was probably no longer available due to age.