General Introduction and my new 1969 500L

[Katie B]

We have primed the fuel line up to the pump but when we turn it over the fuel is not passing the pump.
We have also disconnected the fuel line at the carb and tried to suck it through with no joy which leads us to believe the diaphragm is intact. We have tried this with the fuel cap on and off.
Any suggestions on what it could be?

 

[fiat500]

Any suggestions on what it could be?

Assuming the pump is being fully activated by its pushrod (you would think the assembler has tested that), it is probably just the dryness of the internals having to suck on air rather than fuel. Even small amount of fuel inside the pump would probably get it going.

I would rig up a container of petrol and a temporary delivery pipe to the pump and raise it above so the petrol is initially delivered by siphon to the inlet. That might involve an unpleasant mouthful of fuel, depending how resourceful you are.

Once the pump has that inlet pressure of fuel I'm sure there will quickly be delivery and you can transfer back to the car's own fuel pipe.

 

[Katie B]

Assuming the pump is being fully activated by its pushrod (you would think the assembler has tested that), it is probably just the dryness of the internals having to suck on air rather than fuel. Even small amount of fuel inside the pump would probably get it going.

I would rig up a container of petrol and a temporary delivery pipe to the pump and raise it above so the petrol is initially delivered by siphon to the inlet. That might involve an unpleasant mouthful of fuel, depending how resourceful you are.

Once the pump has that inlet pressure of fuel I'm sure there will quickly be delivery and you can transfer back to the car's own fuel pipe.

Thanks! We have done just that and while cranking the engine by hand at the same time we managed to get fuel out of the pump and up to the carb. We are yet to start it up though as it's been raining all morning (no roof or doors on the car yet) and although we have several fire extinguishers ready, common sense dictates this should be done outside. Safety 1st!

 

[fiat500]

we have several fire extinguishers ready,

...that car is such a scorcher it would have set on fire already if it had any plans to do so!

 

[Katie B]

He's alive! :slayer:

After much faffing with a leaking fuel return fitting, and temporarily fitting a fuel filter due to there being lots of crud in the hard line, we finally got him started. We aim to replace the return with a proper T fitting when it arrives.

Thanks to everyone that helped us get here! I'm also happy to report that as soon as the engine catches the oil pressure warning light went out

Has anyone got any tips for adjusting the idle? I'm not using any choke but if I lift off the throttle it dies, feels like the idle speed is set at about 250rpm!

Here is a link to a video https://youtu.be/NJi9BNCkIFA of the 1st start up

 

[fiat500]

b:

Has anyone got any tips for adjusting the idle?

I don't want to be the one to say "use the idle screw?" , so maybe you could describe more about the situation?

 

[Katie B]

I don't want to be the one to say "use the idle screw?" , so maybe you could describe more about the situation?

Haha yes, obviously. It was more a comment about how low the idle is set, I had assumed that the idle screw had a fairly narrow range of adjustment, a fine tune if you will. This feels miles off, so I wondered if there was something else more obvious I could check.

 

[fiat500]

Haha yes, obviously. It was more a comment about how low the idle is set, I had assumed that the idle screw had a fairly narrow range of adjustment, a fine tune if you will. This feels miles off, so I wondered if there was something else more obvious I could check.

If correctly setup, the engine should eventually be able to idle, possibly a bit falteringly, with the screw just slightly bearing on its stop. Perfection of tickover shouldn't be as slow as you might think. The fan needs to turn reasonably fast when you're standing still to provide cooling. A reasonable speed also reduces the natural bounce of the engine on its mountings. Especially when you have a non-synchro box I think it might also affect the smoothness of gearchanging. There's probably an ideal, measurable RPM but I use judgement.

You may want to try this...not infallible and others may have a different approach; this one works for me.

Note the position of the mixture screw in case you want to undo the following. First you have to get the engine properly warmed up; (ideally by driving it):

1. Gently turn the mixture screw clockwise until it just reaches a stop; don't force it.
2. Turn it anti-clockwise from that point, one and a half turns or 540 degrees.
3. Turn the idle screw to make sure the engine can run without faltering.
4. Slowly reduce the idle until the engine is running as slow as posiible...really slow...no worries if it sounds a bit unhappy as long as it keeps rolling.
5. Slowly turn the mixture screw a meagre amount one way and then the other; in both directions make a mental note of each of the points when it makes the tickover very dodgy and then visualise the mid-point of these settings and take the screw back there; it may be exactly the point you started from. The engine should run very slowly but not stall.
6. Adjust the idle screw for a faster and smooth tickover that sounds right to you.
7. Get driving.

...or just turn the idle speed up a notch or two.

 

[the hobbler]

The idle screw has quite a wide control range. I would start by setting the mixture screw 1-1/2 turns OUT (i.e.fully in, gently, and then back out 1-1/2 turns) and turning the idle screw in so that you have an idle speed of about 800rpm. As the engine warms up the speed will increase. If you have connected the hand-throttle, you could use this to set a high idle speed until the engine has warmed up, if you haven't, you will just have to use the idle screw, well screwed in. When you do have the idle speed about right, turn the mixture screw in until the engine runs a bit rough, and then back it off---also try screwing the mixture screw out until, again. it runs a bit rough and then screw it back in. Doing this will give you your mixture adjustment range. When you have it idling smoothly, you may have re-adjust the idle speed, and then the mixture screw again---it is a matter of balancing the 2 adjustments. You will find that initially you may have to adjust the idle on a regular basis as the engine loosens up. All my books just say set to a "smooth idle speed", but no actual figure---I have found about 800rpm to be good.
Ihave found this system to be as good a way as any to set the engine up---other people may have slightly differing ways. Would I be correct in thinking that you will be removing that filter over the Alternator? You don't need it, especially there! Well done for getting the 'wee beastie' up and running.

 

[Katie B]

Thanks both! We will have a play around with it once we get it out on the road. (hopefully by this weekend if we can get both doors assembled tomorrow)

Would I be correct in thinking that you will be removing that filter over the Alternator? You don't need it, especially there! Well done for getting the 'wee beastie' up and running.

Yep that's right Tom. We reused the solid fuel line and although we cleaned it out we thought it best to pop a filter on while starting the car up to catch anything that may have been missed from inside the line. There are a few bits on the filter so it looks like we made the right call. It will be removed prior to running on the road along with the fuel return line being plumbed in once the T piece has arrived.

 

[Katie B]

The blue transparent fuel hose that we have attached from the solid line to the fuel pump and then from the pump to the carb has, in 1 day, apparently perished. It has gone very soft and porous and has striations on the inside of the hose.
This is the only place on the car that it is situated, the rest of the flexible hosing is braided rubber hose of known quality, rated for multiple fuels (10% max EtOH).

Has anyone else used this type of hose and experienced similar issues?

I suspect that the ethanol in the fuel is incompatible with the material but there is no warning on the site that it was purchased from to say it's incompatible with modern fuels or on the hose itself. This usually manifests itself in brittle porous fuel lines rather than soft and degraded so I'm inclined to think that the hose is completely unsuitable.
It has since been removed and replaced with the same rubber hose as the rest of the system.

We also intend to use fuel additive to prevent any other rubber degradation and rusting due to water absorption by the ethanol. (Millers VSPe)

 

[the hobbler]

Well caught Katie---Ethanol in petrol is a nightmare. I use Esso 'Super' in my Fiat as, according to various web-sites on this subject, in my part of North Wales. this fuel is Ethanol-free. However, despite this assurance, I still put fuel 'protector' in my tank--like you, Millers (the garage I work at just happens to be a 'Millers' agent). If a fuel-line is 'ethanol-resistant', it should have it written on it. I use the fuel line from "Car Builder Solutions" (Gates) which IS ethanol resistant. If you haven't got a copy of the "Car Builder Solutions" catalogue, go onto their website and ask them to send one to you---it is free, and a gold-mine for parts.

 

[Katie B]

Getting around to finishing touches now A detailed forum post is on the way.

On fitting the new bonnet today, we can't get it to line up correctly. We had to buy a new panel as when I first bought the car, the guy who sold it to me went to get the paperwork and hadn't fastened it down correctly and it flew up and hit the body and was dented.
The new bonnet was dry fitted prior to spraying and it fitted ok (I'm not expecting perfection here, I have read all the stories about new panels). Today, it is as described in the pic below and also we cannot get the catch to fully engage. We have moved it within the range allowed by the 3 bolts on the hinge but couldn't manipulate it in such a way that it would engage without 1st catching on the body where indicated.

From reading previous forum posts, people have had similar issues but we seem to have exhausted the suggestions within these.

Any ideas as to what we can try?

 

[fiat500]

Any ideas as to what we can try?

Where did you get the bonnet from? I replaced mine a couple of years ago from Axel Gerstl. They were listing a better quality version which I thought might be worth the relatively small additional cost. It fitted surprisingly well...and this is on a car which not only has had the front wings replaced but also the scuttle panel under the windcreen when these were only available as a handmade, relatively crude item. My car is also on a replacement bootlid hinge.

I suspect the "secret" is in getting the wings fitted exactly where the originals were. For a number of reasons, pointless now to go into, Murf's front is in pretty exact alignment.

If you look at those two re-inforcement ribs under the bonnet skin it's likely that one or both of them has a kink in it. The struts will bow in slightly different ways. Look closely and there should be some deformation around the area where a hole is stamped into the struts. I think these holes are used at the factory to put just the right amount of preload into the struts. the chances are that this is done on an alignment jig because on my car the fit was so good.

If the bonnet is one of the higher quality versions it may still have been mishandled at some point or too much pressure applied to it. But I think it more likely that the wings and/or the front panel have a slight misalignment...that could happen with the best bodyshop around due to slight flaws in panels coupled with heat stresses from welding.

I wouldn't recommend tinkering with the panels at this stage and I'm sure you don't want to in any case. I dry-fitted everything with the rubber buffers and seals in place because they make a big difference to alignments. You may find that by gradually adding these components things get forced into place as you close the bonnet, but you would obviously have to sort out the bonnet closure issue first. Again, if the alignment with the latch is impossible to achieve by using the movement range at the hinge, or if you can get that aligned but at the expense of too big a gap at the scuttle, that possibly points to the front panel being slightly wrong spatially.

If you look at many images of restored 500s they have a poor bonnet fitment. Yours has to be right, so I would start by trial fitting the rubber if it's possible to do that without glueing it down.

 

[Katie B]

Thanks for the reply.

The bonnet is from Motobambino and as far as I’m aware, is of good quality.
Yes there are struts that appear to be different shapes and one has the deformation around the hole as you describe, the one on the drivers side.

I had no panels replaced or welded at the bodyshop, only some hammer work and skimming prior to paint but I suspect the drivers wing has had work in the past.

The rubbers were all fitted but we’re gradually removed to see if they were the issue. We have the rubber trim seal around the bonnet and the conical large rubber next to the catch. Are we missing any? I noticed some bonnets have rubber spacers on the panel itself but mine doesn’t seem to have holes in to locate any?

We will have another try tomorrow.

 

[fiat500]

We have the rubber trim seal around the bonnet and the conical large rubber next to the catch. Are we missing any? I noticed some bonnets have rubber spacers on the panel itself but mine doesn’t seem to have holes in to locate any?

The bonnet should have a small "pip" of rubber at each side, on the flat just at the point where the curve to match the top of the wing starts and about halfway wround the curve...the flange should widen sightly at these points. This allows the bonnet to slide over the top of the wing as it pivots open or closed. You will probably have been supplied a conical rubber like the one which dampens the sunroof catch for the front panel fitted next to the latch. This was originally much shallower and I believe it was flat topped. I shaved off the cone in stages until it just gave enough resilience to serve its main purpose, (ie. to pop the bonnet from its catch when you release it), but not enough to prevent it sitting correctly. Fairly recently it was revealed that the earlier 500s had a stainless-steel,spring-clip at this point, which appears to give a more positive uplift to the bonnet and may be a retrofit.

It's annoying job of trial and error, but that isn't unusual.

 

[Katie B]

The bonnet should have a small "pip" of rubber at each side, on the flat just at the point where the curve to match the top of the wing starts and about halfway wround the curve...the flange should widen sightly at these points. This allows the bonnet to slide over the top of the wing as it pivots open or closed.

Ah ok, does this locate into a hole in the bonnet or glue on? The flange does widen as you describe but no holes are present so I guess we can cut them down and glue them on.

 

[fiat500]

Ah ok, does this locate into a hole in the bonnet or glue on? The flange does widen as you describe but no holes are present so I guess we can cut them down and glue them on.

Originally they popped through a hole there but I ended up glueing. The friction can pull them off and the holes are a rust starter

 

[Vitesse]

There is actually two ‘rubber pips’, as Peter describes them, on the back end of the bonnet lid on either side. One on the flat edge and one on the rear edge that meets with the bulkhead. You can just see them in this picture below.

The other problem I found with pattern part bonnets is the inner lip is much bigger than the original, hence why your’s is catching at the front. I had to cut it down with a dremel and mini cutting disk, then file off the sharp edges, so that it was comparable to the original. But of course I did all this before I had it painted.

Also there is a degree of manipulation of the bonnet that you can do when it is bolted in place. It basically involves bending it slightly to lower or raise as required, it will bend the supporting bar that the hinge is bolted to rather than distort the bonnet. It only requires a small amount in the middle to get quite a bit of movement on the sides but you have to be brave but don’t blame me if it doesn’t work. But it worked for me.

Yes I know the jack is upside down before anyone says anything Oh and Yes I do have an additional rubber seal that I have never seen before on any other 500!

 

[Katie B]

Some more updates on our project...as you can see from the help we’ve been asking for (thanks again) we are a little behind on the thread, but we’ve been making progress on some small and big jobs.

The hand controls were something I wanted to keep, rather than go for a solenoid type starter.

The rubber tips to the controls were in bad shape, so I cleaned them up with some wet and dry paper.

I had to replace the large roll pin in the centre with a bolt because it was bent. I ground the bolt head down flat so it would clear the inside of the plastic centre console, and painted it satin black.

All fitted with refurbished rubber tips.

Next it was time to tackle the "air conditioning". The fit of these original parts to the body wasn’t great, and I didn’t want fumes from the petrol tank areas making their way into the cabin, so I made some fabric gaskets to try and limit this.

Fitted and now flush to the body.

We refurbished these parts some time ago and re-plated the spring clips that hold the valve into position/shape, so hopefully these will last a lifetime.

Fitting the tubes was a total pain.

Thankfully all done.

We also finished up the wiring. We bought a “high quality” loom and I’m pleased to say it lived up to the name, everything was labelled correctly and was the correct length (other then some wires we had to shorten/lengthen due to fitting a 126 engine/box, and having to make up some earth wires for the front lights) We also took the time to cover all of the metal tabs in heatshrink to stop any abrasion issues.

Once the vents and wiring were in it was time to put in the fuel tank. I started by using a small quantity of contact adhesive to hold the cork strips in place.

I did the same to the underside of the tank.

For the run of fuel line from the tank, through the centre tunnel and out the rear bulkhead, I got some over-braided ethanol-resistant hose, so it would be more resistant to abrasion in unseen areas of the car.

I used a flame to seal the braid.

And I applied some heat shrink to keep things neat.

And fitted to the tank.

Sender wired in.

Finished!

I also had one remaining rear axle to set to the appropriate torque after having to wait for a new nut due to stripping the threads from the last one. What a pain these were! :bang:

Now it was finally time to put the new engine and gearbox in. After struggling with moving the engine and gearbox when we removed the original, we decided to keep the dolly we used for the bodyshell with the plan of modifying it to fit the new engine and gearbox.

The dolly was duly made up using parts of the old one and part of the crate the engine was delivered in. What you can’t see is I made it with a kind of “puck” underneath designed to fit the head of the jack right at the CofG of the engine/gearbox combo, so it would be easy to lift the short distance needed to get it in, I didn't want to drop my new engine!

Rear engine mount on. I had to steal some studs from the old engine to fit this properly.

And just like that, it’s in...it is only four bolts I suppose. We did have a bit of a faff getting the engine mount spring in, but once we had compressed it, it went in fine.

Once everything was torqued up I used the paint pen to mark the bolts.

Now it was time to connect up the gear selector, heat pipe, starter cable, battery cable, etc that are hidden underneath.

One hungry Fiat.

Driveshafts went in next.

Torque set and good to go.

All connected.

Next on the list was to get the engine ready to run. We purchased the engine some time ago and it had sat in my garage ever since. I did occasionally turn it over by hand, but I was worried that all the oil may have drained from the head etc. during storage. Following some advice on here (thanks) I removed the rocker cover and put some oil on the moving parts.

Before:

After:

I also removed the spark plugs and dropped a few drops of oil down each hole to lube the bores, and cranked the engine by hand for a few revolutions.

We then dry cranked the engine to see if the oil pressure warning light would go out, but it would not...after much worrying and some encouragement on here (and after a bit of faffing getting the fuel pump primed) it fired up fine and the oil pressure warning light that had started on during dry cranking went out immediately. Result! :slayer:

The engine would however die without quite a lot of throttle, some adjustments to the idle screw and mixture and now it starts, and runs well cold and hot. (Thanks again to the helpers on here for the advice about setting up the carb etc.)


The next day we decided to make a few changes after the clear fuel hose we had purchased from a well known 500 supplier had essentially melted overnight. It had gone very soft and seemed to be porous, or at least the garage stank of fuel. So with that we went to a local motorsports supplier and bought some new R9 nitrile hose and a brass tee so we could route the return rather than blocking it off at the carb.

I also picked up some DEI exhaust wrap whilst I was there to try and keep temps down in the engine bay and make the life of the coil etc. a little easier. I also decided to repaint the “manifolds” VHT matte black.

Painted.

Wrap on. This wasn’t too difficult but it is fibreglass, so prepare to be itchy for a day afterwards!

Next was something we were dreading...glass. We elected to use the string method, and we also used a heavy duty suction mount to help hold and pull the glass where needed.

Meanwhile my husband polished all the glass after I had cleaned it using a razor blade to get rid of all the old bonded seal/crud.

Side glass in, these were the easiest ones. The seals were dunked in hot water prior to fitting so they were nice and supple, this definitely helped.

Rear window in, this one was a little more difficult.

Front window drains in place.

Draining into the front wings...need to check this is the right spot!

The front screen was a different story, it was a much tighter fit than the others and took 2 tries to get right.

Front bumper went on next, he finally has a face again!

Now the engine bay was complete, the rear lid could go on. This took some tweaking of the mounts and some modification to the lock/seal, but the fit is finally good.

Getting so close now. Hoping to get the doors sorted this week, plus we have the bonnet fit to tweak as it's catching at the front edge. One thing at a time but we are getting there…

More soon!