Hi, sorry new to forum and already looking for help - we have pulled in to a petrol station for diesel and now the engine will not start. The immobiliser light with a key that says Code stays on and the engine turns over but will not start. We have a blue key and a black one but no red one. We are on a pilote motorhome 2.8 TD Ducato, year 2000. We are awaiting breakdown recovery but have been doing some Googling and looks like this could a very expensive job. Is it possible to disable the immobiliser? Many thanks for any help
Technical Immobiser wont trim off
- Thread starter Lotusanne
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Technical Immobiser wont trim off
Try taking keys out, undo battery, reconnect and try again…my old 2000 2.8 did the same thing several times a week…I eventually went to a breakers and got a used ‘aerial’ pickup for ign barrel
Communicator
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Your x230 model, 2.8idTD will have the immobiliser mounted on the mechanical fuel injection pump. It is possible to remove these completely, but not at the roadside. There are security screws that may need grinding off. Other threads on the subjectmay be found by searching on this forum.
I think that there will be an emergency code applicable to your vehicle, which may be obtained from Fiat who withhold these codes for UK vehicles at insurers request.
Perhaps your breakdown organisation could assist with obtaining the code.
I do not have an x230 model, but I think the code receiver is under the dash, and communicates with the bit on the pump. Perhaps @porta can remember where. My cure? on my later x244 model, was to clean the contacts on the code receiver under the steering column, in particular the aerial connector.
I have exchanged posts with @ThorRoger (search for his posts), whose x230 immobiliser fails when hot. Starts when OK when cold. Thor's temporary fix was to pour cold water on the shroud at the end of the pump.
thank so much , well tried the disconnecting battery , didn’t work, then Other Half sprayed WD40 down ignition - his go to tool!! - and unbelievably it has started! Have cancelled breakdown - still not turned up! Fingers crossed we make it home
That is good news but maybe more fluke than anything…a good auto electrician should be able to sort bypassing the immobiliser. Mine worked wehn it wanted to but persistence just trying and retrying the ignition switch usually worked, eventually…I managed to get a second hand one from a van breakers in Bradford, they advertise on eBay…but it’s old kit now so bypassing may be the best option
If possible keep engine running till you reach destination as immobilisers do not generally stop engine once running for safety reasons. May be a long drive, plenty of coffee and diesel
well - made it home, had to stop twice but it started fine each time, Parked outside the house, decided to move forward a foot and guess what- light is staying on and it won’t start! Tried the WD40 trick - but sadly it didn’t work this time! Will see what tomorrow brings - amazing that it got us home though before conking out again - phew!! Thanks again for the advice really appreciated
At least you got home.
It may well be worth looking into what @Communicator mentioned if you cannot find anything obvious as you don't want to get stuck somewhere.
It may well be worth looking into what @Communicator mentioned if you cannot find anything obvious as you don't want to get stuck somewhere.
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Would not be surprised if it was the ign switch,
Hello again and thanks again for all the previous help. My son in law disconnected the antenna from the receiver and cleaned it all out and the van started fine for a few days but now back to square one. Fiat don’t manufacture the part anymore so looking at second hand ones. I have been given the code by 2 separate suppliers but it is not the same as the one on the antenna- this is partly worn off unfortunately but can see enough to see it’s not the same. Will go with the ones the dealers said as googling it does bring up the correct picture. My question is - if we just get the antenna will the immobiliser still work? I am not sure how it all works but someone said if we also replace the receiver we will need new keys. Which is dead expensive. But will the antenna switch alone be sending the correct info? Sorry if this sounds daft but I don’t really understand how it all works! May have to go with disabling it if going to be dead expensive
The antenae ring around the key hole should be ok to change without upsetting anything else as it is just passing the signal it reads from the key to the next bit up the line BCM/immobiliser/ECU.
So in my opinion try changing that and if no improvement I would follow advice from @Communicator .
Hello again and thanks again for all the previous help. My son in law disconnected the antenna from the receiver and cleaned it all out and the van started fine for a few days but now back to square one. Fiat don’t manufacture the part anymore so looking at second hand ones. I have been given the code by 2 separate suppliers but it is not the same as the one on the antenna- this is partly worn off information lol
The antenae ring around the key hole should be ok to change without upsetting anything else as it is just passing the signal it reads from the key to the next bit up the line BCM/immobiliser/ECU.
So in my opinion try changing that and if no improvement I would follow advice from @Communicator .
Thanks Mike, will try that first that’s just what I needed to know, appreciate your helpThe antenae ring around the key hole should be ok to change without upsetting anything else as it is just passing the signal it reads from the key to the next bit up the line BCM/immobiliser/ECU.
So in my opinion try changing that and if no improvement I would follow advice from @Communicator .
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Hi, @Lotusanne ,
I seriously doubt that changing the antenna will solve your problem. The antenna is nothing more than a coil of wire encased in a plastic moulding. Checking for continuity with a multimeter will prove that it is intact. Having typed that I have had another thought.
As you have discovered there may be different versions of the antenna. Fiat eLearn for my x244 shows connectors at the antenna and at the code receiver, with a short connecting cable. When I was investigating my own problem, I could not find a connector at the antenna. The antenna and cable appeared to be one assembly. (I was not inclined to carry out a destructive examination,) This would make sense in reducing the number of connectors in the circuit.
If there is a connector at the antenna, this should be cleaned in a similar manner to that at the code receiver.
Part of the problem is the age of the components, as in your vehicle they will be over 20 years old, which is a good lifetime for electronic equipment. Are we trying to use 20 year old TVs, mobile phones, computers, or digital cameras? To some extent we must live in hope.
Only yesterday I looked up the electronic chip that is used in the keys, and downloaded a data sheet. One thing that stood out was the code retention, which was stated as 20 years. After that the code could presumably become corrupted.
How the system works? My knowledge is based on Fiat eLearn (electronic manual) for my x244 model which has an electronically controlled engine. I am assuming that for engines with mechanical injection will be similar, but if I get it wrong please accept my apologies.
In order to stop a diesel engine or prevent it starting, you need to cut off/prevent the supply of fuel. In your 2.8idTD engine there is an electromagnetically operated valve on the injection pump (fuel cut off valve), For the engine to run,his valve must have a 12V supply from the ignition switch.
The key code system interupts this supply, inside the secure cover on the pump.
The chip in the key is a micro computer with no external wires. It works in a similar manner, to contactless credit/debit cards.
When ignition is switched on, the code receiver, which is also a transmitter, and the unit on the pump receive power.
The code receiver transmits a small amount of power via the antenna to the key chip., and reads the code stored in the key chip., which is transmitted back to the code receiver, which has valid codes stored in memory. Normally the key is accepted, and the code light is turned off. (This last part could be more complicated.)
At the same time in human perception, the pump unit asks the code receiver for a stored unlock code. This code is only sent to the pump if the code reseiver has recognised the key code as one stored in its own memory. Provided that the pump electronics receive the correct code from the code receiver, then it should connect the 12V from the ignition switch to tp fuel cut off solenoid. Engine should then start when cranked.
Any queries?
If anyone can improve on this basic explanation, please edit and repost.
Possible causes of failure.
My own theory is that the signals to and from the antenna are of low voltage, and are unable to overcome oxide films om connector contacts. I had two failures in five attempts last March. Connector contacts cleaned and no failures since.
@Anthony489 has suggested that radio components (key chip & code receiver) may go off tune.
Failure of components with age, and repeated heating and cooling. I suspect that @ThorRoger 's pump unit has a micro crack in an electronic component. He cannot start a warm engine, unless he pours water on the pump shield to cool it.
As vehicles get older, then possibly all of the above could apply.
I seriously doubt that changing the antenna will solve your problem. The antenna is nothing more than a coil of wire encased in a plastic moulding. Checking for continuity with a multimeter will prove that it is intact. Having typed that I have had another thought.
As you have discovered there may be different versions of the antenna. Fiat eLearn for my x244 shows connectors at the antenna and at the code receiver, with a short connecting cable. When I was investigating my own problem, I could not find a connector at the antenna. The antenna and cable appeared to be one assembly. (I was not inclined to carry out a destructive examination,) This would make sense in reducing the number of connectors in the circuit.
If there is a connector at the antenna, this should be cleaned in a similar manner to that at the code receiver.
Part of the problem is the age of the components, as in your vehicle they will be over 20 years old, which is a good lifetime for electronic equipment. Are we trying to use 20 year old TVs, mobile phones, computers, or digital cameras? To some extent we must live in hope.
Only yesterday I looked up the electronic chip that is used in the keys, and downloaded a data sheet. One thing that stood out was the code retention, which was stated as 20 years. After that the code could presumably become corrupted.
How the system works? My knowledge is based on Fiat eLearn (electronic manual) for my x244 model which has an electronically controlled engine. I am assuming that for engines with mechanical injection will be similar, but if I get it wrong please accept my apologies.
In order to stop a diesel engine or prevent it starting, you need to cut off/prevent the supply of fuel. In your 2.8idTD engine there is an electromagnetically operated valve on the injection pump (fuel cut off valve), For the engine to run,his valve must have a 12V supply from the ignition switch.
The key code system interupts this supply, inside the secure cover on the pump.
The chip in the key is a micro computer with no external wires. It works in a similar manner, to contactless credit/debit cards.
When ignition is switched on, the code receiver, which is also a transmitter, and the unit on the pump receive power.
The code receiver transmits a small amount of power via the antenna to the key chip., and reads the code stored in the key chip., which is transmitted back to the code receiver, which has valid codes stored in memory. Normally the key is accepted, and the code light is turned off. (This last part could be more complicated.)
At the same time in human perception, the pump unit asks the code receiver for a stored unlock code. This code is only sent to the pump if the code reseiver has recognised the key code as one stored in its own memory. Provided that the pump electronics receive the correct code from the code receiver, then it should connect the 12V from the ignition switch to tp fuel cut off solenoid. Engine should then start when cranked.
Any queries?
If anyone can improve on this basic explanation, please edit and repost.
Possible causes of failure.
My own theory is that the signals to and from the antenna are of low voltage, and are unable to overcome oxide films om connector contacts. I had two failures in five attempts last March. Connector contacts cleaned and no failures since.
@Anthony489 has suggested that radio components (key chip & code receiver) may go off tune.
Failure of components with age, and repeated heating and cooling. I suspect that @ThorRoger 's pump unit has a micro crack in an electronic component. He cannot start a warm engine, unless he pours water on the pump shield to cool it.
As vehicles get older, then possibly all of the above could apply.
Hi Communicator. Thankyou so much for taking the trouble to post such a detailed explanation. I have sent it to my son in law to see what he thinks we should do next, ( I have to confess to being a big confused! ) I have been looking for second hand antenna but can only find them in places like Lithuania so am going to hold off as it may not resolve things anyway. He did already clean the connector contacts, but I will ask him to do it again. I am attaching photo of the antenna in case it is of any help, and the code I have given is is 1316575080 though as I said this is not the same as on the antenna! Starting to think that bypassing the system and putting in a security lock plate over the pedals might be the best solution! It is such a pain as this is our only vehicle at the moment , luckily we are on a bus route!! Thanks again, Anne
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Hi again, could anyone advise how to bypass the immobiliser on the van as on thread above? It is 2.8id TD year 2000. The immobiliser has stopped working and Fiat don’t sell the parts any more. We have sourced a new antenna and ignition barrel and key from Lithuania but that doesn’t work. We have tried loads of different things eg disconnecting battery etc but nothing works so we just want to disconnect it now - and bypass it but cannot do this either . Would be really grateful for any help/ suggestions thanks
Communicator
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Hi @Lotusanne ,
Sorry to learn of your continuing problem. To save my typing the following is mainly a copy from a recent post of mine on another thread.
"As suggested there is an electronic immobiliser unit behind a security cover on the injection pump. The immobiliser interrupts the electrical supply to the stop solenoid on the pump. The cover can be removed but it involves either drilling out, or grinding the heads of the security locking screws. (I do not have a 2.8idTD, but I can realise that access may be limited.)
With the security cover removed the electronics can be bypassed. There will be a wire from the ignition switch, which will need to be connected directly to the wire from the engine stop solenoid on the pump.""
(I would expect to find 3 or 4 wires in total. Ignition switched supply, connection from code receiver, conection to pump stop solenoid, and perhaps an earth.)
There is also the possibility that the stop solenoid itself, which needs a 12V supply for the engine to run, could be sticking mechanically. Faulty stop solenoids can be replaced, but the cover will still need to be removed for access.
The vehicle is 20+ years old. Probably more than the design life of the immobiliser electronics...............
For more information, try using the forum search faciity at the top righthand corner of the page. Perhaps try starting with "immobiliser removal".".
Photo originally posted by @bugsymike in similar thread. The stop solenoid is the partly concealed brass component.
Sorry to learn of your continuing problem. To save my typing the following is mainly a copy from a recent post of mine on another thread.
"As suggested there is an electronic immobiliser unit behind a security cover on the injection pump. The immobiliser interrupts the electrical supply to the stop solenoid on the pump. The cover can be removed but it involves either drilling out, or grinding the heads of the security locking screws. (I do not have a 2.8idTD, but I can realise that access may be limited.)
With the security cover removed the electronics can be bypassed. There will be a wire from the ignition switch, which will need to be connected directly to the wire from the engine stop solenoid on the pump.""
(I would expect to find 3 or 4 wires in total. Ignition switched supply, connection from code receiver, conection to pump stop solenoid, and perhaps an earth.)
There is also the possibility that the stop solenoid itself, which needs a 12V supply for the engine to run, could be sticking mechanically. Faulty stop solenoids can be replaced, but the cover will still need to be removed for access.
The vehicle is 20+ years old. Probably more than the design life of the immobiliser electronics...............
For more information, try using the forum search faciity at the top righthand corner of the page. Perhaps try starting with "immobiliser removal".".
Photo originally posted by @bugsymike in similar thread. The stop solenoid is the partly concealed brass component.
