Technical How not to grease King Pins

[GrahamH2]

I’m not a great lover of king pins having had bad experiences with a Messerschmitt KR so best to squirt some grease in there and keep them sweet, good idea.

First the grease gun would not seal and grease went anywhere but down the hole. So a new grease coupler should fix that, now the new coupler fouls the nipple mounting area. So better proportioned nipples should fix that, well grease went in the top nipples (it is a 500R with twin nipples each side) but now the left grease nipple points directly at the brake disc and there is no way to connect without removing the disc or a 45 degree nipple should fix it. Still no way would grease go into the lower nipples. After reading on the forum that just maybe the bushes have been fitted with the grease feed hole misaligned preparations were made to drill through the bush, this should fix it.

The nipples removed but the expected bronze bushes look a funny ‘steel’ colour and with no hint of a grease inlet, so back to the forum and the interweb.

So now I find there are teflon lined bushes that can be fitted as a cheap option to the original type bronze bush so it looks like that’s what I have; so if I may, a couple of questions:

Are the steel/teflon bushes a good idea? do they last OK? and do they need grease and if so how to get it in there. And for academic interest what would be the grease path for original bronze buses with twin grease nipples?

 

[the hobbler]

I’m not a great lover of king pins having had bad experiences with a Messerschmitt KR so best to squirt some grease in there and keep them sweet, good idea.

First the grease gun would not seal and grease went anywhere but down the hole. So a new grease coupler should fix that, now the new coupler fouls the nipple mounting area. So better proportioned nipples should fix that, well grease went in the top nipples (it is a 500R with twin nipples each side) but now the left grease nipple points directly at the brake disc and there is no way to connect without removing the disc or a 45 degree nipple should fix it. Still no way would grease go into the lower nipples. After reading on the forum that just maybe the bushes have been fitted with the grease feed hole misaligned preparations were made to drill through the bush, this should fix it.

The nipples removed but the expected bronze bushes look a funny ‘steel’ colour and with no hint of a grease inlet, so back to the forum and the interweb.

So now I find there are teflon lined bushes that can be fitted as a cheap option to the original type bronze bush so it looks like that’s what I have; so if I may, a couple of questions:

Are the steel/teflon bushes a good idea? do they last OK? and do they need grease and if so how to get it in there. And for academic interest what would be the grease path for original bronze buses with twin grease nipples?

I have twin-grease-nipples for the king-pins on my 500 and yes, on one side (I can't remember off-hand which) one of the nipples does require a bit of planning to get at. I have found that the easiest way was to just undo and remove one of the caliper retention bolts (being careful to note where any spacer washers, if fitted. go) and just pivot the caliper up out of the way. As to whether the teflon bushes require lubrication, I don't know---I have traditional bronze bushes in my king-pin carriers---and keep them well lubricated. Originally the bushes were over-sized internally bronze and required reaming out to the required clearance. The proper Fiat tool for this job was very long, adjustable reamer---the idea being that the reamer went through BOTH of the bushes, so kept them reamed out inline with each other. It was not my favourite job as the difference between not-reamed-put-enough and reamed-out-too-far was not much!

 

[wingless]

Sorry but these posts are confusing to me, referencing "disc" and "caliper".

My Fiat 500 has drum brakes, front and rear, no disc, no caliper, just drum and cylinder.

Perhaps image(s) would help...

 

[GrahamH2]

Sorry but these posts are confusing to me, referencing "disc" and "caliper".

My Fiat 500 has drum brakes, front and rear, no disc, no caliper, just drum and cylinder.

Perhaps image(s) would help...

All the 500's started out with drum brakes but many like mine have been uprated with front discs.

 

[the hobbler]

All the 500's started out with drum brakes but many like mine have been uprated with front discs.

Wingless; My reason for describing how I got round the problem of greasing the king-pins with disc brakes was that "GrahamH2" mentioned how difficult he found it to do this job with disc brakes fitted. As he mentioned, ALL the 500 variants originally were built with drum brakes, both front and rear. My car has been fitted with disc brakes (only on the front---waste of time and money to fit them on the rear pn a "road-use-only" car) as it more than a tad quicker than standard with wider wheels and lowered suspension.

 

[fiat500]

Sorry but these posts are confusing to me, referencing "disc" and "caliper".

My Fiat 500 has drum brakes, front and rear, no disc, no caliper, just drum and cylinder.

Perhaps image(s) would help...

I am not sure if any version of the car came from the factory with twin grease-points, but there are many setups that have been retro-fitted that way. In order to grease mine, which has two grease-nipples, I have to turn the steering alternately to full lock, and I find that with my standard, drum brakes, I can just get the grease-gun nozzle on.

The original kingpins had one, central nipple on the swivel, and this aligns through a circumferential groove in the pin to a horizontal drilling. This drilling is bisected by a vertical drilling the full length of the kingpin. The grease ends up in a space above the kingpin which is capped by the silentbloc bush. At the bottom, the grease ends up in a space that is capped by either a screw-in or press-fit plug. The pressure of the grease-gun then forces grease down and up helical grooves which are machined in the kingpin, and this is supposed to give even lubrication of the bushes.

I don't think that the grease will harm Teflon bushes, but as with the original type of brass bushes, they may not have a drilled hole for the grease to enter directly from the grease nipple. I think this is sometimes a problem when people have used the wrong or misaligned the bushes when they haven't thought this out properly

 

[the hobbler]

I am not sure if any version of the car came from the factory with twin grease-points, but there are many setups that have been retro-fitted that way. In order to grease mine, which has two grease-nipples, I have to turn the steering alternately to full lock, and I find that with my standard, drum brakes, I can just get the grease-gun nozzle on.

The original kingpins had one, central nipple on the swivel, and this aligns through a circumferential groove in the pin to a horizontal drilling. This drilling is bisected by a vertical drilling the full length of the kingpin. The grease ends up in a space above the kingpin which is capped by the silentbloc bush. At the bottom, the grease ends up in a space that is capped by either a screw-in or press-fit plug. The pressure of the grease-gun then forces grease down and up helical grooves which are machined in the kingpin, and this is supposed to give even lubrication of the bushes.

I don't think that the grease will harm Teflon bushes, but as with the original type of brass bushes, they may not have a drilled hole for the grease to enter directly from the grease nipple. I think this is sometimes a problem when people have used the wrong or misaligned the bushes when they haven't thought this out properly

I have seen some of the 'after-market' king-pin kits with SOLID king-pins AND no 'grease-groove'! How the grease is supposed to get up/down the length of the pin beats me. With the single greae-nipple set-up on the stub-axle, the grease was able to get into the pin through the horizontally drilled hole; the pin being held in the correct position in the stub-axle by the roll-pin that went through the pivot part of the stub-axle and the groove in the king-pin. With the "2 grease-nipple" set-up, one SHOULD drill the bushes (through the grease-nipple hole) after they have been inserted and (if required) reamed to size.