timberbloke
New member
Hi, does anyone know if the x1/9 was every homologated into group 3. Any information would be most welcome.
cheers
cheers
General homologation
- Thread starter timberbloke
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General homologation
jimbro1000
Established member
Somewhere I have the homologation papers for the X1/9 and I don't remember it saying anything about group 3 which would have been series-production grand touring cars in the 70's. The papers mention group 4 which shouldn't come as a great surprise in a modern context but in the 70's group 4 was special grand touring cars which in name at least is much closer to the modern group 3 (grand touring cars).
Not sure on how the FIA works in that respect. The production numbers required to meet group 3 were easily met but I seem to remember that the regulations for group 3 were tighter than for group 4 with the group numbering increasing as the production requirements decreased and SR freedom increased.
I assume the question stems from a desire to take part in an historical series (race or rally). A friend of mine has a fair bit more experience dealing with this subject as he spent a lot of time assisting on such a project a few years back with Jeremy Anstead. I would suggest posing your question on the Sporting Fiats Club website where he resides.
Not sure on how the FIA works in that respect. The production numbers required to meet group 3 were easily met but I seem to remember that the regulations for group 3 were tighter than for group 4 with the group numbering increasing as the production requirements decreased and SR freedom increased.
I assume the question stems from a desire to take part in an historical series (race or rally). A friend of mine has a fair bit more experience dealing with this subject as he spent a lot of time assisting on such a project a few years back with Jeremy Anstead. I would suggest posing your question on the Sporting Fiats Club website where he resides.
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timberbloke
New member
You are a real gentleman Jimbro, thanks for the info. Yes I'm planning on a bit of historical rallying. I can run in standard trim but it would be nice to have a few more legal horses under the bonnet. Once again cheers.
jimbro1000
Established member
I'm afraid that the special homologation parts listed don't add up to much. I think from memory there was a change to the carburettor, the brakes and some lightweight interior parts but that was pretty much it that I could decipher (the papers being in italian).
jimbro1000
Established member
Just as a further thought there is of course the prototipo 2000 cars prepared by Abarth but these were never homologated although they did take part in a number of world level rallies at the time (and unceremoniously pissed on the fast but troublesome Lancia Stratos teams).
Those cars were based on some fairly heavy duty upgrades to everything, including the engine which was ditched in favour of the rather more capable twin-cam. This is not club level racing of course but the external bodywork modifications are readily available from Guy Moerenhout in Belgium. The bodywork mods all fall within group 4 regulations for silhouette constraints with the exception of the snorkel which is of dubious benefit anyway for a group 4 car.
That would at least give you the wider track and wheel clearance you need to get some proper suspension travel in.
Those cars were based on some fairly heavy duty upgrades to everything, including the engine which was ditched in favour of the rather more capable twin-cam. This is not club level racing of course but the external bodywork modifications are readily available from Guy Moerenhout in Belgium. The bodywork mods all fall within group 4 regulations for silhouette constraints with the exception of the snorkel which is of dubious benefit anyway for a group 4 car.
That would at least give you the wider track and wheel clearance you need to get some proper suspension travel in.
timberbloke
New member
I have made some tentertive enquiries about running a prototipo but alas the historic guys say no way.
jimbro1000
Established member
Thought that might be the case - it would fall under group 5 rules anyway.
Don't think they want any of those sub-group b cars anyway as that marks a rather unfortunate chapter in rallying.
There is still a lot that can be done within the context of the group 4 rules provided they accept it as a group 4. Within group 3 you can run the stock parts (no fancy carburettor) but you have the option of picking from the various modifications made throughout the lifespan of the model.
Do your rules specify if it has to be european models only or can it be any of the models sold worldwide? If it is then you have the option of using the fuel injection system used in the states (certainly sold in enough numbers to cover basic homologation). In essence this is the head and manifolds from the fuel injected Uno's (NA and turbo). You would need a late 1500 block to match them up correctly as they changed the size and number of the head bolts but it does all just bolt on. You then have a better fuelling and ignition system. A proper production spec built engine will give you at least another 10bhp and an extra 500 rpm (absolute minimum).
Check your SR's very carefully what concessions they are offering for things like oil coolers - the oil cooler alone can help maintain the power over the length of a stage. A bit of cherry picking elsewhere on things like gearbox ratios and diff ratios can make a big difference and there are options available to you. Some very subtle cosmetic mods (like removing the rear facing slats in your side pod vents) can help things enormously.
Don't think they want any of those sub-group b cars anyway as that marks a rather unfortunate chapter in rallying.
There is still a lot that can be done within the context of the group 4 rules provided they accept it as a group 4. Within group 3 you can run the stock parts (no fancy carburettor) but you have the option of picking from the various modifications made throughout the lifespan of the model.
Do your rules specify if it has to be european models only or can it be any of the models sold worldwide? If it is then you have the option of using the fuel injection system used in the states (certainly sold in enough numbers to cover basic homologation). In essence this is the head and manifolds from the fuel injected Uno's (NA and turbo). You would need a late 1500 block to match them up correctly as they changed the size and number of the head bolts but it does all just bolt on. You then have a better fuelling and ignition system. A proper production spec built engine will give you at least another 10bhp and an extra 500 rpm (absolute minimum).
Check your SR's very carefully what concessions they are offering for things like oil coolers - the oil cooler alone can help maintain the power over the length of a stage. A bit of cherry picking elsewhere on things like gearbox ratios and diff ratios can make a big difference and there are options available to you. Some very subtle cosmetic mods (like removing the rear facing slats in your side pod vents) can help things enormously.
timberbloke
New member
What I've done is put all of these enquiries in writing as requested and am now awaiting a reply but I think only pre '81 modifications will be allowed. However i shan't pre judge the reply. It will be interesting to see what i can and can't do as an exxy would be an interesting car in any historic series, something different from the escorts and big volvo's.
jimbro1000
Established member
Another paper trail you may want to examine is the fact that the X1/9 was classified as a 128 variant and there are a lot more homologation options under the 128. I'm pretty sure this includes some worthy power upgrades like cams and twin carbs under group 4. Of course you still have the task of persuading your eligibility scrutineer that this all applies but it is very hard to disprove the 128 - X1/9 connection, you only have to look at the chassis numbers for confirmation.
I'm told (providing your Italian is up to scratch) that getting the homologation papers direct from Italy is nowhere near as tricky as it used to be.
I'm told (providing your Italian is up to scratch) that getting the homologation papers direct from Italy is nowhere near as tricky as it used to be.
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Thomasgeraint
New member
Hi all
The 1300x was homologated into Group3 in 1973 Paper Ref: 3050 (I have a copy if anybody wants more info). the 1500 in 1979 Paper Ref: 3082 both where subsequently transferred to GrB.
The Gr3 homologation was pretty basic but there were some extension papers applicable to Gr4 such as a 5 speed box in 1974 and a dry sump kit in 1977.
You could therefore run a 5speed 1300x in Catergory2 (Post Historic) of the Bristish Historic Championship, but if you wanted to dry sump it that would take you into Catergory 3 (Classics).
Any other modifications that you could prove were used at any level of rallying in the relevant period could be replicated but the onus of proof is on the user.
The eligibility of a prototipo is an interesting point. You can certainly use it in the FIA European Historic Championship as they cater for Group5 vehicles in defined as "Special Touring Cars Derived From Group 1-4" The Prototipo would come under "Period I" for vehicles used 1.1.75 to 31.12.81.
It should also be eligable for the Catergory2 (Post Historic) of the Bristish Historic Championship as
A: It was used pre 1975 and therefore complies with the Catergory2 (Post Historic) period
B: Vehicles competing in Catergory2 (Post Historic) are also subject to Regulation 262 to 282 of the RACMSA rulebook. Rule 267 allows for any vehicle which falls within the FIA AppendixJ 1981 definitions, which the Prototipo does.
Unless there is a specific secret ruling banning Gp5 cars, I can't see how the present regulations can stop you from using one.
The 1300x was homologated into Group3 in 1973 Paper Ref: 3050 (I have a copy if anybody wants more info). the 1500 in 1979 Paper Ref: 3082 both where subsequently transferred to GrB.
The Gr3 homologation was pretty basic but there were some extension papers applicable to Gr4 such as a 5 speed box in 1974 and a dry sump kit in 1977.
You could therefore run a 5speed 1300x in Catergory2 (Post Historic) of the Bristish Historic Championship, but if you wanted to dry sump it that would take you into Catergory 3 (Classics).
Any other modifications that you could prove were used at any level of rallying in the relevant period could be replicated but the onus of proof is on the user.
The eligibility of a prototipo is an interesting point. You can certainly use it in the FIA European Historic Championship as they cater for Group5 vehicles in defined as "Special Touring Cars Derived From Group 1-4" The Prototipo would come under "Period I" for vehicles used 1.1.75 to 31.12.81.
It should also be eligable for the Catergory2 (Post Historic) of the Bristish Historic Championship as
A: It was used pre 1975 and therefore complies with the Catergory2 (Post Historic) period
B: Vehicles competing in Catergory2 (Post Historic) are also subject to Regulation 262 to 282 of the RACMSA rulebook. Rule 267 allows for any vehicle which falls within the FIA AppendixJ 1981 definitions, which the Prototipo does.
Unless there is a specific secret ruling banning Gp5 cars, I can't see how the present regulations can stop you from using one.
jimbro1000
Established member
Nice piece of information - I don't suppose you could send me a copy of those papers? I have one set of papers that doesn't include some of those extensions (that I can remember - the problem being that I can't find my copy anywhere, I know I have a set)