*HELP* Punto 1.1 55 Sx not starting after plug, coil and lead change

[d1ckyboy]

Here goes my first thread, so bear with me if i start asking silly questions.

I have a 1997 1.1 Sx on 57,000 miles, it was giving to me by a friend as it was no longer need by them.

It was coughing a spluttering/loosing power last week and then died.
I suspected coil failure and this was confirmed as plug No3 wasn't sparking.
So needless to say i replaced the plugs both coil packs and HT leads a few days ago as i was unsure when they were done last.
Now all the plugs are sparking as they should

But i still have a problem, the car will not start now and when it does it will not go above 2000rpm and this is after 4/5 long attempts to start it with jump leads attached as it drains the battery.
When its started and running it stinks of fuel and when my foot is let off the throttle pedal the car won't idle, it'll just cut out.
After it cuts out it takes 4/5 attempts to start again

Does anyone know what my problem could be as the leads and plugs were replaced like for like and replaced in the same order 4-1-3-2

Is this the correct firing order ??

The car has had a new cambelt and was running fine for month and then started playing up it has had a new battery and starter less than 6 months ago as well.

Anyones help would be appreciated.


Richard

 

[mrcinquecento]

try disconnecting the map sensor and see if symptoms persist if so, check the timing, sounds like it may have slipped

if not either of them, i've found the main sources for overfuels are the coolant temp sensor (blue plug on the back of the inlet manifold, can cause it to overfuel like a pig but doesnt really effect revving), the lambda (same as blue plug but less severe symptoms still)

out of interest, how is the air filter/induction? an overfuelling problem doesnt always mean the fuels at fault, can be an air/mix problem that's choking the engine, that may also explain your revving issue, but my money without seeing would first be on map or timing

 

[ycming]

For firing order, it doesn't mater, you need to make sure 14 goes to one coil pack and 23 goes to another. If is spiting flames out the throttle, then switch the plugs to the coil pack.

I'll double check tomorrow to make sure is 14 and 23.

ming

 

[d1ckyboy]

try disconnecting the map sensor and see if symptoms persist if so, check the timing, sounds like it may have slipped

if not either of them, i've found the main sources for overfuels are the coolant temp sensor (blue plug on the back of the inlet manifold, can cause it to overfuel like a pig but doesnt really effect revving), the lambda (same as blue plug but less severe symptoms still)

out of interest, how is the air filter/induction? an overfuelling problem doesnt always mean the fuels at fault, can be an air/mix problem that's choking the engine, that may also explain your revving issue, but my money without seeing would first be on map or timing

Where is the MAP Sensor ?

Can i unplug the coolant temp sensor and see if it runs any better ?
If it does its ****ed !!
If it doesn't unplug the lambda sensor.

It has a standard airbox setup with a new filter.

If its the coolant temp sensor, i dread to think what Fiat stealer will charge for one

For firing order, it doesn't mater, you need to make sure 14 goes to one coil pack and 23 goes to another. If is spiting flames out the throttle, then switch the plugs to the coil pack.

I'll double check tomorrow to make sure is 14 and 23.

ming

Ok, its set up 4132 the now and has no spitting flames out of throttle.

Just a stink of fuel, thats why i thought it was over fuelling.

Its strange why it won't rev over 2000rpm though, unless that more timing related

Would a plug with a gap slightly out cause it at all ?
As they are at 0.85mm when they came out the box

 

[mrcinquecento]

Where is the MAP Sensor ?

can't remember where it sits on a punto, but on a cento, it sits above the ecu to the right of the throttle body. it's a black plastic triangular thing with a thin black plastic pipe connecting to it, best way to find it is to look at the pipes coming off the Throttle body, then trace it to the black plastic triangle, pull pipe off and see whats what

also, check that pipe is clear

Can i unplug the coolant temp sensor and see if it runs any better ?
If it does its ****ed !!

yes, it'll throw up a dash warning light, but it'll go off again when it's reconnected

If it doesn't unplug the lambda sensor.

yes, but your car's symptoms dont point to lambda, i run without a lambda connected right now, just makes the car run slightly rich but doesnt effect the revving ability

It has a standard airbox setup with a new filter.

If its the coolant temp sensor, i dread to think what Fiat stealer will charge for one

common engines, same as the 1.2 8v's and the 1.1 cinqs + seis, get the sensor from the scrappy, better yet get 2, 3, 4 just incase the one you pick is faulty they fall into pockets nicely, annoying buggers to get out though!

from a fiat dealer, they are stupidly expensive iirc, they dont commonly fail, so second hand will do

Its strange why it won't rev over 2000rpm though, unless that more timing related

it could be timing related, you said it was done a few months ago and was fine then, if tensioner wasnt done correctly etc, the timing may have slipped a couple of notches

Would a plug with a gap slightly out cause it at all ?
As they are at 0.85mm when they came out the box

it'd be more of a misfire than a choking overfuel IMO, best to look into map + timing first really

 

[d1ckyboy]

.

can't remember where it sits on a punto, but on a cento, it sits above the ecu to the right of the throttle body. it's a black plastic triangular thing with a thin black plastic pipe connecting to it, best way to find it is to look at the pipes coming off the Throttle body, then trace it to the black plastic triangle, pull pipe off and see whats what

also, check that pipe is clear

I'll check it.
Although on the Punto is on the drivers side, theres a cable runs over the top of the rocker cover to the left.
Could that be it ?
Where does it go to on the cento once it leaves the throttle body ?



yes, it'll throw up a dash warning light, but it'll go off again when it's reconnected

Ok, i'll check it


yes, but your car's symptoms dont point to lambda, i run without a lambda connected right now, just makes the car run slightly rich but doesnt effect the revving ability

I thought i'd ask anyway

common engines, same as the 1.2 8v's and the 1.1 cinqs + seis, get the sensor from the scrappy, better yet get 2, 3, 4 just incase the one you pick is faulty they fall into pockets nicely, annoying buggers to get out though!

from a fiat dealer, they are stupidly expensive iirc, they dont commonly fail, so second hand will do

Will head to scrappy tomorrow and will find a few no doubt, are they the same on Mk2 Puntos or any other fiats ?

it could be timing related, you said it was done a few months ago and was fine then, if tensioner wasnt done correctly etc, the timing may have slipped a couple of notches

How and where would i be able to check this ?
Any timing marks that are easy to see ?

it'd be more of a misfire than a choking overfuel IMO, best to look into map + timing first really

I don't suppose you know the proper HT Lead order do you ?
as i have read a few threads and replys on here saying different things.

I'd buy a Haynes manual, but the last time i bought one the information was very basic and didn't have the information i was looking for

 

[mrcinquecento]

I'll check it.
Although on the Punto is on the drivers side, theres a cable runs over the top of the rocker cover to the left.
Could that be it ?
Where does it go to on the cento once it leaves the throttle body ?

i know. thats why im not sure where the MAP is on a punto, it should be in the same place tbh, but best way to find it is to follow that pipe. it wont be far away from the throttle body

it's connected to a plug on the loom iirc and the pipe from the throttle body goes right to the MAP

yes, it'll throw up a dash warning light, but it'll go off again when it's reconnected

Will head to scrappy tomorrow and will find a few no doubt, are they the same on Mk2 Puntos or any other fiats ?

i think they are the same across alot of fiats, i'd personally get it from a similar engine, but pretty sure it'll be on mk2's aswell, although they have different manifolds for MPI fuel injection, your car is SPI.

How and where would i be able to check this ?
Any timing marks that are easy to see ?

if theres no timing guards on, on the cam there will be a mark to line up to the head at approx 9 o'clock position

the bottom timing mark is trickier, becuse the proper way to do it is to remove the aux/alt belt pulley. the timing mark is on the sprocket that lines up with a little notch on guard built onto the block at approx 10 o;clock position

.

I don't suppose you know the proper HT Lead order do you ?
as i have read a few threads and replys on here saying different things.

I'd buy a Haynes manual, but the last time i bought one the information was very basic and didn't have the information i was looking for

mine from memory, looking at the coils, from top to bottom is 4-1-2-3

 

[d1ckyboy]

i know. thats why im not sure where the MAP is on a punto, it should be in the same place tbh, but best way to find it is to follow that pipe. it wont be far away from the throttle body

it's connected to a plug on the loom iirc and the pipe from the throttle body goes right to the MAP

yes, it'll throw up a dash warning light, but it'll go off again when it's reconnected


Ok cheers, now i know where it goes to i'll have a look about


i think they are the same across alot of fiats, i'd personally get it from a similar engine, but pretty sure it'll be on mk2's aswell, although they have different manifolds for MPI fuel injection, your car is SPI.

I'll keep an eye out for the Spi ones

if theres no timing guards on, on the cam there will be a mark to line up to the head at approx 9 o'clock position

the bottom timing mark is trickier, becuse the proper way to do it is to remove the aux/alt belt pulley. the timing mark is on the sprocket that lines up with a little notch on guard built onto the block at approx 10 o;clock position

Heres hoping theres enough space to see it, i hope i don't need the wheel off and to look through the wheel arch

How hard are the timing belts and tensioners to change if it is that ?

mine from memory, looking at the coils, from top to bottom is 4-1-2-3

Ok cheers, i'll try that and see if it runs any better.
What car do you have ?

.

 

[clock34]

You checked engine earths. I had a very similar problem. Check the earth just behind the coils. Without that it wont rev past 2k properly and wont idol

 

[d1ckyboy]

You checked engine earths. I had a very similar problem. Check the earth just behind the coils. Without that it wont rev past 2k properly and wont idol

I'll check that too

Where about beside the coils is it ?

 

[d1ckyboy]

I'll check that too

Where about beside the coils is it ?

Reason I ask is this is all I have
No earth leads, or wires that look like one in sight

Any chance of pics ?
I unplugged coolant temp sensor and car idled for two three minutes fine then cut out.

I still can't find the map sensor, Haynes says it's attached to the back left of bulkhead with a vacuum hose and wires going to it.
This msy sound silly but i can't see it around the brake fluid bottle area :-(

 

[clock34]

no pics sorry, but its just a thin wire to a 10mm nut on the back of the head area,

also the map comes off a rubber hose leaving your tb, just find the rubber hose (thin) and follow it.

 

[d1ckyboy]

no pics sorry, but its just a thin wire to a 10mm nut on the back of the head area,

also the map comes off a rubber hose leaving your tb, just find the rubber hose (thin) and follow it.

theres a few hoses coming from the throttle body

lol

Where about on the back of the head area ?
Wheres it bolted to on the head ?
And where does the other end of the earth wire go to ?

This is what the bay looks like

 

[d1ckyboy]

*UPDATE*

I eventually found the MAP SENSOR

It was right on front of me all the time when i was looking for it.
I unplugged it and tried starting the car and it wouldn't fire into life at all, tried disconnecting the blue coolant sensor and nothing.
So i plugged both the plugs back in and tried starting the car again.
NOTHING HAPPENED YET AGAIN.
I did a resistance check on the TDC Sensor and it was within the limits set out in the haynes manual.
So it seems ok too
And all the plugs are firing.
The cars getting fuel as throttle body is honking of fuel.

So i'm ****ed if i know what it could be now
My next step was to find out where to order a new MAP sensor and coolant sensor from.
And hope its one of them.
Or buy a fault code reader and see what that comes up with (Here goes my next thread)

 

[mrcinquecento]

have you checked the timing?

 

[d1ckyboy]

have you checked the timing?

It was a **** to check.
But its spot on.
I forgot to say the car fired and ran for a min or so then cut out.
That is with all the sensors connected :banghead:



I have also been told on Fiat Forum that the plug order is

The firing order is 1-3-4-2
http://www.fiatforum.com/punto/112918-punto-60-1242spi-firing-order.html

4-1-3-2 (or 1-3-2-4) is wrong and explains why it wont run.

Which is different to what i have the now.

Why are so many people coming out with different bloody plug orders.
Now i don't l know whats right or wrong :banghead:

 

[d1ckyboy]

Thats a new temp sensor fitted and its had two coils, plugs and leads and a fuel filter and still no life in the bugger.

I have a MAP Sensor on it way from Euro Car Parts to see if tht makes a difference and if it doesn't i'm ****ed if i know what to do

Anyone ?

 

[mrcinquecento]

if you can try another crank sensor, do.

 

[d1ckyboy]

if you can try another crank sensor, do.

Will do,
But i thought if that was buggered, the plugs wouldn't spark at all.
And they are

 

[d1ckyboy]

As i've had another car to run about in the has been put to the side lately.
I've ordered another crank sensor so i guess time will tell if it is that.
The timing has been rechecked too

Anyone else any ideas what it could be ?