General Help please: Idling, Injection, Starting problems.

[clarabow]

Hey guys, this is my first port of call... I passed my test back in September, and bought my car for 300 quid off a friend, It had done 60k miles, and 2 previous careful owners -- My friend has had a couple of problem with it but not a frequent as I'm getting them. And as cheap first driver insurance it seemed like the right thing to do...

Well, so I thought, the car it self is reliable in terms of it's age, however, recently it's becoming annoying and more recently it is becoming a danger.

Things to know: Cinquecento, 900cc, M.

• Battery is good.
• Starter Motor is good.
• Passed MOT in Nov.
• Air filter is clean.
• All hoses seem okay.
• Ducting looks good (may replace though).
• Oil is checked often and filter is new.

My problems:

• Starting - Sometimes (not always) it will not start with the key, I hear no starter motor ticking over, just some faint electrical sound that last for a second. to get the car to start I have to either bump it (no problems there) or push it backwards and forwards then give it a go (this method does not always work). -- My solution is that I bought a new Starter Motor and will be fitting it tomorrow, hopefully this will cure this problem. (any other suggestions?)

• Idling - Once I get the car started it will rev to a normal idle then after a second it will get faint forcing the car to shut down. I also see the Injector fault light on the dash, to cure this problem I am currently keeping light revs on in natural to keep it alive. Again this does not happen all the time, only recently.

• Injection - Sometimes (most trips at the moment) I will be driving the car and it will suddenly have no power, the engine will still be running but I have no acceleration, this will happen for about 2/3 seconds and kick back in again with the addition of the Injector light on the dash. I have had this problem before and I changed the spark plugs and it seemed to help for a while. Now I think it could be lack of fuel getting through the filter to feed it at low revs, this problems (not always) but mostly occurs when slowing down, approaching junctions roundabouts etc... also when the engine is getting hot, waiting in traffic does not help it. (does not always happen these ways, just more so then other ways)

• (additional - the car can sometimes slightly juddery when in lower gears 2/3 while accelerating or de-accelerating, have not noticed this much though)

Lucky, I work at Halfords, and I can get the parts on trade, but I'm no mechanic and this it my first car. I do like the car, and plan to keep it for a good few years, Just want to get to the bottom of the problem.

Any suggestions and I would be great, thank you.

 

[rallycinq]

This could all be related to one problem

The noise you can hear is the fuel pump priming, it should do that.

Lack of response from the starter can be a gearbox earth fault. Before fitting the starter motor get a single jump lead and put it from the block to the chassis and see if that cures the problem.

A fault of the earth would lead to all sorts of wierd thing happening with instruments a lights as well.

Cheers

D

 

[clarabow]

Lack of response from the starter can be a gearbox earth fault. Before fitting the starter motor get a single jump lead and put it from the block to the chassis and see if that cures the problem.

Thanks for the response,

What do you mean 'from the block' assuming you mean the gear box? and how would I do this?

Never though it would be something to do with the gearbox.

Thanks

ps... what about the random idling problems?

 

[fingers99]

All you do for Rallycinq's suggestion is take 1 of a pair of a pair of jump leads (Halfords ones will do!) -- may as well be the black one: clip one end to the negative (marked -ive), coloured black, terminal and the other to any sticky out and shiny bit of the engine it'll clip to. At a pinch, the gearbox will do.

If it sorts out the problem(s) you need to finde and go round all the earth leads (generally, they're braided and run from the engine and gearbox to the bodywork) undo both ends, clean them up. coat with vasaline, and tighten them up again.

If it doesn't work, come back here.

 

[rallycinq]

The gearbox earth is attached to one of the bolts that hold the selector on to the top of the box, and then to an earth point on the inner wing on the nearside.

Cheers

D

 

[clarabow]

Okay, I found that the earth going from the Batt to the left hand side of the engine block was loose, thus causing a spark, I cleaned this up and made sure it was tight. I also put another earth lead from the Batt to the right hand side of the engine (on the clutch/ gear area) using one of the starter motor bots, for good measure.

I no longer have starting problems (so far)!

However, driving the car home was a bit of a problem, I was going at like 40 and changed into 5th after I did this I lost power and the injector light came on the dash again... once the car was back to action after a second I put it into 4th and it was okay for a minute, until I put my foot down a bit and I lost power again going from 45 ish to 30... then after like 3 seconds it went back to life. the injector light stayed on the dash for 6/7 mins then went away.

Seems I can't escape this issue help please.

 

[rallycinq]

Have you had any of the management connectors off recently?

Have a look at the O2 sesnor wiring and make sure its not compromised.

Cheers

D

 

[clarabow]

I'm not too sure how to find that, I will ask the garage... I'm not sure if it is an electrical problem anymore, I've had a look at the fuel filter and it looks like the one bought with the car! so I'm going to give changing that a go, Sorting that out tomorrow morning.

I'll keep you posted with my progress, and I speak to the garage about the O2 sensor wiring.

Thanks for your help Rally

It's really annoying, such a fun car, just a slight pain in the ass.

 

[fingers99]

O2 sensor = lambda. It's mounted on a boss on the exhaust manifold (underneath the car). Sometimes folk put universal fit ones on and make a mess of the wiring. Sometimes they just bite the dust.

If the loss of power happens when the engine is up to temperature but not when cold then lambda is a likely culprit.

 

[clarabow]

It is not always when it is up to temp... last night I started the car and drove it up a hill, after being on for like 2 mins, I had the problem, this time forcing the car to stall as I was not going fast enough to maintain revs and this was in 1st gear.

I've looked into the Lambda sensor thing before, I will check it out and possibly get a new one.

I'll keep you posted, thanks.

 

[fingers99]

If it does it cold as well (when the lambda doesn't come into operation) look at the MAP sensor. Often it's not the sensor itself, but the thin tube which leads to it (blow it out with an airline, check for splits) or the little rubbers on the end of it.

 

[clarabow]

Ok, that is my next port of call... here is what I got so far.

New earth, sorted the starting problems.

Just fitted a fuel filter (by my self!) and now it seems to idle okay and run okay... the old filter was poring out, one side dirty fuel and the other clean looking fuel.

So that is it so far.

Right! I took it for a drive, done about 10/ 12 miles and had no problems starting it, however, I was waiting at the lights for a while and it cut out!? (could this be the new fuel filter getting used to the system?).The red ignition light came on twice for aprox 2 to 6 minutes... This did not effect the ride, I had no power loss and it even drove well under low revs.

But the light is still coming on! so there is still a problem. My next port of call is going to be the MAP sensor as you suggested Fingers -

There is one more thing that I did not address in my original post, the hose that goes from the air box (left of it) to the top of the engine around to the front is not in great shape... there is a small split in it (which I've taped up) and it had a split in the tube that goes from the top of the engine, I simply made this shorter and put a new clip on it. not sure if this is a big problem. but I will look at getting this replaced - Fiat charge 50/ 60 quid for it!! anyone got a spare!?

Thanks for your help guys, you're saving my a lot of money here.

Thanks

 

[fingers99]

A sort of metalic silver hose? If so, that's just the hot air feed to the airbox. Doesn't do a lot, really, and won't be the result of the cutting out.

 

[clarabow]

Some pics to help with my progress.


The new earth, for good measure.


The pipe that I had to make shorter, as it was hard and cracked.


This is the pipe I'm talking about that goes from the air box, to the engine, and also to the side of the distributor (I think). If anyone can get hold of one cheap I'll worship you forever.


This shows the tape job because of the small (1/2 CM split) I think it is just a breather pipe. you guys know better!

 

[clarabow]

If it does it cold as well (when the lambda doesn't come into operation) look at the MAP sensor. Often it's not the sensor itself, but the thin tube which leads to it (blow it out with an airline, check for splits) or the little rubbers on the end of it.

eek, don't know where it is, looking in the Haynes manual I can't find where it is also.

 

[clarabow]

Found this doing a google search.

[SIZE=+1]"FIAT Cinquecento (MMFD 6F)

Problem - Poor Idle/Performance/Starting

Possible Cause - The ecu has lost the signal from the map sensor and gone into limp home.

Possible Solutions -

1) Check/replace the map sensor, vacuum hose and/or wiring. If the map sensor needs replacing, then replace the blue version with a modified black version.

2) Water and fuel reach the map sensor through the vacuum hose from the intake manifold. This effect can be enhanced, if the intake manifold pre-heating is not functioning properly. To overcome this install a fuel/water seperator. This should be fitted in the vacuum hose, in front of the map sensor."

http://www.atpelectronics.co.uk/hinttips/fiatc6fpi.htm
[/SIZE]
​

 

[fingers99]

Hah! Probably pinched from here and/or ClubCento!

 

[clarabow]

hehe, possibly!

Well I think it is all over... one more thing.

I drove like 12 miles, and stopped for like 10 minutes, when I restarted the car again it did not idle properly, and the red light came on, keeping the car alive I drove it home again and the light stayed on for like 8 mins or so... not making a difference to the ride. I just want to get to the bottom of the problem.

any other possibility's?

PS I cleaned the MAP pipe.

 

[clarabow]

Did the same as my last post... Drove the car like 5 miles, (no problems at all) parked up, came back in like 10 mins and started the car, immediately I had idling problems, and the light on the dash. I'm sooo close to cracking this!

Any suggestions?