Panda 2012+ Hello

[jrkitching]

they'll end up on forecourts...

The important thing is to make sure they don't end up on your drive.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It looked very tempting, so I can see why a dealer has snapped it up, but while Auto Trader lists it as a “good price”, I think its very high, especially as I know 2 days ago it was being sold for £2000 less!

A TwinAir Lounge has come up for sale near to me. It’s a 2016 with 70,000 miles. 2 owners, but the current owner says it has been serviced every year or 10,000 miles and he has all the invoices to back it up. It’s tempting to look, but my head is telling me I should stick to looking at 1.2s.

As advised by jrk above, listen to your head! The 1.2 may not be so exciting but the 1.2 is surprisingly nippy, especially around town, and mechanically is so much simpler and doesn't need any "exotic" oils etc. Even moderately incompetent workshops will find it hard to do much damage to one whereas the twin air? Just too much to potentially go wrong with them as they get older. Check for rusty sumps and rusty spring pans on the rear axle and whether it drives well. A wee look inside the expansion bottle and oil filler cap for evidence of mayonaise and any general signs of over heating - the wee 4 cylinder FIRE engines are pretty bullet proof if looked after but don't like being seriously overheated (like when driven with little coolant and will reward you by blowing the head gasket. I'm obsessive about this so check my coolant level every weekend and have never had an overheating problem. Also, mechanically, these engines/gearboxes have been around for so long there are parts available from many sources so you're never likely to be off the road for long even for "serious" repairs.

 

[nimbus]

As advised by jrk above, listen to your head! The 1.2 may not be so exciting but the 1.2 is surprisingly nippy, especially around town, and mechanically is so much simpler and doesn't need any "exotic" oils etc. Even moderately incompetent workshops will find it hard to do much damage to one whereas the twin air? Just too much to potentially go wrong with them as they get older. Check for rusty sumps and rusty spring pans on the rear axle and whether it drives well. A wee look inside the expansion bottle and oil filler cap for evidence of mayonaise and any general signs of over heating - the wee 4 cylinder FIRE engines are pretty bullet proof if looked after but don't like being seriously overheated (like when driven with little coolant and will reward you by blowing the head gasket. I'm obsessive about this so check my coolant level every weekend and have never had an overheating problem. Also, mechanically, these engines/gearboxes have been around for so long there are parts available from many sources so you're never likely to be off the road for long even for "serious" repairs.

Absolutely appreciate all the advice... so I've definitely dropped the TA engines from my search.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Absolutely appreciate all the advice... so I've definitely dropped the TA engines from my search.

It's a shame really because there are many posts from people with the TA who say what an "entertaining" drive they are. The thought of owning one not in it's first flush of youth scares me silly though! A friend who lives in the flats opposite us has a 500 with the TA engine and just of late it's been making some horrid and expensive sounds when she first starts it and drives away. Sounds "normal" when she returns with the engine presumably up to operating temp but sound really quite rough from a cold start - might well be the wrong oil I suppose?

 

[boozyjay]

Absolutely appreciate all the advice... so I've definitely dropped the TA engines from my search.

Don't forget to look on eBay. I've seen some nice facelift Panda's (new style alloys/ DAB) on there for reasonable money. Way nicer and better value than that blue one you posted about earlier.

 

[Panda IIs]

Not to me it isn't. Too many years spent moderating too many threads started by folks with cars exactly like this throwing up expensive, hard to diagnose faults. The TA was a car best bought new and traded away before the warranty expired.

Maybe a little balance required Mr Moderator? We only come here (generally) when things go wrong; no news is good news?

 

[nimbus]

For me the words of caution surrounding the TwinAir are welcome. I think the idea of the TwinAir is a good concept, but it does seem that they do require more careful attention than the 1.2. Also the fact that if they do go wrong specialised knowledge of the engine is less readily available, and the bills can often be very expensive. So I feel as a used car buyer looking around the 2012-2016 era cars, a lack of knowledge about how well the car has been looked after presents a greater risk than the 1.2.
I found a series of YouTube videos where a guy does an engine swap because his TwinAir engine failed. However he struggled with the engine swap because there was a lack of technical manuals available for the engine. There's 8 videos of his work on the Fiat 500 here which I found pretty interesting:
Link to YouTube
I guess a lot of people who didn't think to research the engine would buy it without thinking too much about potential problems ahead. For me, always having had an interest in cars, I've found researching on owners forums is one of the best ways of getting good information about any issues with a specific car/engine, etc.

The person selling the TwinAir near me responded to my concerns about the TwinAir with:

Duly noted, yes with this car I've not experienced, nor seen any details of the engine not running perfect. The last service in July was an in-depth one so any issues would of flagged up. The Panda has had two owners, including myself. I have owned the car for just about a year, and used for driving to train station and back, however my situation has now changed so that's why I am selling. I bought from a dealer so am unaware of the exact history of the car and can only speculate.

 

[jrkitching]

For me the words of caution surrounding the TwinAir are welcome. I think the idea of the TwinAir is a good concept, but it does seem that they do require more careful attention than the 1.2. Also the fact that if they do go wrong specialised knowledge of the engine is less readily available, and the bills can often be very expensive. So I feel as a used car buyer looking around the 2012-2016 era cars, a lack of knowledge about how well the car has been looked after presents a greater risk than the 1.2.

I think that's an excellent summary.

Maybe a little balance required Mr Moderator?

It's important to be balanced, and you're right to call me out if you think I've overstepped the mark.

But the number of posts regarding engine problems with the TA do seem to be greater than those from folks with a 1.2, despite their being far more 1.2's in service. Also, 1.2 problems are generally simple, obvious and easily fixed (like failed thermostats), whereas issues with the TA are generally harder to diagnose and more costly to repair. DMF failure, turbocharger problems and not knowing if the uniair module is actually working correctly are all things the 1.2 owner need not worry about.

The economics of running a car in the second half of its life aren't the same as those of running a new or nearly new one.

 

[Marcus Daly]

Love my TA!

 

[nimbus]

The economics of running a car in the second half of its life aren't the same as those of running a new or nearly new one.

Exactly. Any 2nd hand car we purchase is going to have more expensive maintenance bills than the 6 month old Octavia I purchased. On top of the usual things such as tyres, discs, pads, there will be things like clutches, cambelts, springs/shocks, etc. But for me it's very good to know that the TA engine carries more risk, with the possibility of more expensive bills if previous owners haven't taken care of it.

Love my TA!

I think the seller on Auto Trader is completely genuine. He's brought the car from a Fiat dealer, looked after it himself and has receipts. But he does admit that he doesn't know how well it was looked after by the previous owner.

I think if there was an independent Fiat specialist close to me I would feel happier about looking at the TAs.

I'm not sure my local garages see a lot of them, so having something less 'exotic' would be easier from that perspective too.

As an example I used to have a Mk1 MX-5. I used to do most of the maintenance on it myself. However, it started to leak oil from the front and rear of the engine. A couple of years before when it needed a cambelt change I asked the garage to change the front camshaft and crankshaft seals - and supplied the parts, along with a new water pump. So while I knew the rear oil leak could have been the rear main seal, the front oil leak I had no clue. So I took it to a local garage who diagnosed the crankshaft had too much movement and quoted £1,400 to replace the thrust washers. I was pretty shocked and had never heard of issues with thrust washers. I asked on the MX-5 owners forum and most people were not convinced. So I ended up driving 100 miles to an MX-5 specialist. They checked the movement on the crankshaft and said it was fine. The issue turned out to be the rear main seal had gone, and the crankshaft seal which I'd previously paid to be replaced, hadn't been. The final bill wasn't anywhere near £1400. I would've been fuming at paying for the thrust washers to be changed, to find it still leaking oil.

Since then I've preferred to use independent garages which specialise in cars which are a little 'different'.

 

[Panda IIs]

I think if there was an independent Fiat specialist close to me I would feel happier about looking at the TAs.

Oh but there is! Jamie Porter at FIAT/Alfa Workshop Royston. Personally always had a good experience there over 30+ years of FIAT, Alfa and Lancia ownership.

 

[nimbus]

Oh but there is! Jamie Porter at FIAT/Alfa Workshop Royston. Personally always had a good experience there over 30+ years of FIAT, Alfa and Lancia ownership.

I did see his name come up on a previous thread when I was searching the forum looking for TwinAir advice. However, when I looked him up, his website only mentions Alfa Romeo, so assumed he was solely focussed on that now:
https://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk
Whatever type of Fiat I end up with, and if he does still work with Fiat then that's quite easy to get to for me.

 

[boozyjay]

Not sure if these are any good for you nimbus as I'm not sure what your budget is, but they all look decent.

2016 Fiat Panda LOUNGE Used Hatchback Petrol Manual | eBay

NR Bates & Son - Visit us for a test drive - Call us on +441144787498 or click here to find out more.

www.ebay.co.uk

2018 Fiat Panda 1.2 Lounge Euro 6 5dr HATCHBACK Petrol Manual | eBay

Madeley Heath Motors - Call us on +441782969830 or click here to find out more.

www.ebay.co.uk

Fiat Panda 1.2 Lounge 5dr Hatchback Petrol | eBay

Perrys Barnsley - Vauxhall - Call us on +441226447145 or click here to find out more.

www.ebay.co.uk

2018 Fiat Panda 1.2 Lounge 5dr HATCHBACK Petrol Manual | eBay

Derek Merson - Call us on +441643803771 or click here to find out more.

www.ebay.co.uk

2016 fiat panda lounge 1.2 one owner, full service history very low mileage | eBay

Rayners Garage - Visit us for a test drive - Call us on +441473907712 or click here to find out more.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[nimbus]

Not sure if these are any good for you nimbus as I'm not sure what your budget is, but they all look decent.

Many thanks for these, really helpful.
On the later cars with the uConnect head unit fitted, can that receive DAB radio?

 

[boozyjay]

Yes, the later ones - with the new style alloys, seat trim and darker dashboard, DAB came as standard.

 

[Panda IIs]

I did see his name come up on a previous thread when I was searching the forum looking for TwinAir advice. However, when I looked him up, his website only mentions Alfa Romeo, so assumed he was solely focussed on that now:
https://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk
Whatever type of Fiat I end up with, and if he does still work with Fiat then that's quite easy to get to for me.

https://www.fiatworkshop.co.uk/ from a search today. Either way Alfa use same kit pretty much, and they are just a good bunch of, knowledgeable, mechanics. I have also found them very fair and reasonable price wise.

The original focus was Alfa but the terms of reference were broadened to FIAT. You won't find many workshops with their own "how to..." videos (that potentially encourage DIY...).

 

[Marcus Daly]

Yes, the later ones - with the new style alloys, seat trim and darker dashboard, DAB came as standard.

DAB was standard from mid-to-late 2020 onwards, I think.

When I ordered my 4x4 in mid-2020, I pointedly refused to pay £100 for DAB which was still listed as a cost option. When the car was finally delivered (like a baby, nine months later), I was pleasantly surprised to find it had DAB.

 

[nimbus]

https://www.fiatworkshop.co.uk/ from a search today. Either way Alfa use same kit pretty much, and they are just a good bunch of, knowledgeable, mechanics. I have also found them very fair and reasonable price wise.

The original focus was Alfa but the terms of reference were broadened to FIAT. You won't find many workshops with their own "how to..." videos (that potentially encourage DIY...).

Many thanks for this... much appreciated.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

https://www.fiatworkshop.co.uk/ ...You won't find many workshops with their own "how to..." videos (that potentially encourage DIY...).

Two of which appear to be of my car

 

[Big gerry]

Absolutely appreciate all the advice... so I've definitely dropped the TA engines from my search.

That’s a pity because Iam so glad I bought a TA my panda has 100.000 miles on it . It’s like any other engine you need to keep up with maintenance because if you don’t bother about it you will finally run into a big bill