Technical Head stuck on block

[Simon H]

Had a belt skip one tooth on timing on my 1100cc 128 which I belive is the same engine as the X19 and ive bent some valves
Stripped her down so everything is loose and the head will not budge at all does anyone have any words of wisdom and at this point encouragement.
Charts folks, Simon.

 

[puntodad19]

Dowels ?

Check on epar for any dowels, or anything else which may prevent the head form being lifted off the block.

Post epar images....

 

[jackwhoo]

Make 100% sure ALL bolts removed.
Use a couple of strong metal rods (re bar Is good) in the head bolt holes just inserted into the head NOT extending into block , rock the head free

 

[puntodad19]

If the manifolds are still on, could they be used to *rock* the head free...

Rods in head bolt holes is also good, just take your time being firm but not violent.

Report back as to your method which worked...

Did you check epar for dowels ?

 

[124BC1]

Does your engine have 10 cyl. head bolts or 5 bolts + 5 studs/nuts? (some 128's had this latter arrangement).
If 10 bolts, then I'd agree with what others have suggested trying - it's probably just a combination of locating dowels and old gasket sticking that is preventing the removal of the cyl. head. Often, part of the gasket sticks to the head and the other part sticks to the cyl. block, preventing it from lifting.

However, if your engine is the type with 5 bolts + 5 studs, then corrosion may have formed between the studs and the holes in the cyl. head. To overcome this, trickle penetrating oil down around the studs, leave to soak before shocking the end of each stud with a block of hardwood and a hammer (or refit the nut and hit this with a hammer and large diameter drift - be careful to avoid damaging the stud/nut threads). I don't think there's room to remove the studs with the head in place.

 

[Simon H]

Does your engine have 10 cyl. head bolts or 5 bolts + 5 studs/nuts? (some 128's had this latter arrangement).
If 10 bolts, then I'd agree with what others have suggested trying - it's probably just a combination of locating dowels and old gasket sticking that is preventing the removal of the cyl. head. Often, part of the gasket sticks to the head and the other part sticks to the cyl. block, preventing it from lifting.

However, if your engine is the type with 5 bolts + 5 studs, then corrosion may have formed between the studs and the holes in the cyl. head. To overcome this, trickle penetrating oil down around the studs, leave to soak before shocking the end of each stud with a block of hardwood and a hammer (or refit the nut and hit this with a hammer and large diameter drift - be careful to avoid damaging the stud/nut threads). I don't think there's room to remove the studs with the head in place.

This is exactly it 5 studs and 5 bolts, i used a puller to pop the head free but she was still being hard work so I ended up driving the head and block apart using an axe

 

[Simon H]

she is off finally and can confirm I have 4 ever so slightly bent exhaust valves.

 

[jackwhoo]

Ouch

 

[puntodad19]

How are the guides ?

Inlet valves usually have larger diameter heads...

An axle, novel but it worked

 

[Simon H]

How are the guides ?

Inlet valves usually have larger diameter heads...

An axle, novel but it worked

The guides appear fine no witnes marks or squished metal, yeah its definatly the smaller exhaust valves that have kissed the pistons.

How much could I skim off the head or for the sake of circa £300 I could get a new old stock head from Italy.

Yeah wasn't my idea for the axe it was my old school friend before I could even say no he was swinging a mallet at it

 

[Simon H]

So I ended up buying a new old stock head with valves and springs installed for £252 from Italy and bonus the numbers match perfectly to mine and I don't have to lap any valves in, I pulled my shoulder when I last lapped valves in.

So I need to purchase the following also unless anyone can think of something ive missed.

New top end gasket set
Manifold and thermostat studs
New thermostat
Worth getting new head bolts and studs? 5 of each or can I convert it all to bolts?

And she will need shimming which is always fun.

Simon.

 

[brokendonkey]

when ive had head stuck on in the past ive just lifted them up with the engine crane.
for that price i think the new old stock head is a no brainer.
if your buying a complete top end gasket set i would change the valve stem oil seals on your new head if the current ones are ancient.

 

[Simon H]

when ive had head stuck on in the past ive just lifted them up with the engine crane.
for that price i think the new old stock head is a no brainer.
if your buying a complete top end gasket set i would change the valve stem oil seals on your new head if the current ones are ancient.

This was my exact plan those stem seals would be abit dry by now i would imagine.

 

[124BC1]

--------------------

An axle, novel but it worked

I presume it was a 'splitting axe' and not a 'felling axe'...

 

[124BC1]

So I ended up buying a new old stock head with valves and springs installed for £252 from Italy and bonus the numbers match perfectly to mine and I don't have to lap any valves in, I pulled my shoulder when I last lapped valves in.

So I need to purchase the following also unless anyone can think of something ive missed.

New top end gasket set
Manifold and thermostat studs
New thermostat
Worth getting new head bolts and studs? 5 of each or can I convert it all to bolts?

And she will need shimming which is always fun.

Simon.

For future reference, there are 2 types of tool available for easy lapping-in of valves - one is powered by an electric drill, the other is air powered. e.g. :-




Best to fit a new timing belt...

Check that you have 2 locating dowels fitted on the block surface - I see one of these is still in the old cyl. head. These can usually be pulled from the head using pliers, but if very tight, insert a close fitting bar/shank end of drill bit/socket before clamping on a Visegrips to avoid collapsing the dowel.

Check if there are any coolant pipe metal stubs that need to be swapped from the old head to the new head - same procedure ^^ can be used to safely grip and unscrew these metal stubs without crushing them (they can be very tight due to being a tapered? thread plus the sealant used).

If the old head bolts and studs are undamaged, you could re-use them - afaik they're not TTY (on the 128, >1980), we re-used them 'back in the day' without any problems.

But if you do decide to fit all bolts, remember that the shorter bolts i.e. to replace the studs + nuts have to be fitted to the cyl. head before the cam box is installed. (I believe this is why the early engines had 5 studs + 5 bolts i.e. to allow the head and cam box to be fitted as a unit to the cyl. block).
Also, I'm assuming your existing bolts and studs are 12 x 1.25mm? If so, have you checked that the new cylinder has 12mm bolt holes?

 

[Simon H]

For future reference, there are 2 types of tool available for easy lapping-in of valves - one is powered by an electric drill, the other is air powered. e.g. :-

View attachment 489760View attachment 489762


Best to fit a new timing belt...

Check that you have 2 locating dowels fitted on the block surface - I see one of these is still in the old cyl. head. These can usually be pulled from the head using pliers, but if very tight, insert a close fitting bar/shank end of drill bit/socket before clamping on a Visegrips to avoid collapsing the dowel.

Check if there are any coolant pipe metal stubs that need to be swapped from the old head to the new head - same procedure ^^ can be used to safely grip and unscrew these metal stubs without crushing them (they can be very tight due to being a tapered? thread plus the sealant used).

If the old head bolts and studs are undamaged, you could re-use them - afaik they're not TTY (on the 128, >1980), we re-used them 'back in the day' without any problems.

But if you do decide to fit all bolts, remember that the shorter bolts i.e. to replace the studs + nuts have to be fitted to the cyl. head before the cam box is installed. (I believe this is why the early engines had 5 studs + 5 bolts i.e. to allow the head and cam box to be fitted as a unit to the cyl. block).
Also, I'm assuming your existing bolts and studs are 12 x 1.25mm? If so, have you checked that the new cylinder has 12mm bolt holes?

Im going to look at cleaning all the bolts and studs up see how they look I know I definatly need atleast two nuts and possibly a stud for the head.
I did also remove that locating dowel from the head.
The coolant pipe stub does that just unscrew from the head then?
I dont know how big rhe holes are on the new head but with the numbers matching to the digit I would imagine they are the same.

 

[124BC1]

Im going to look at cleaning all the bolts and studs up see how they look I know I definatly need atleast two nuts and possibly a stud for the head.
I did also remove that locating dowel from the head.
The coolant pipe stub does that just unscrew from the head then?
I dont know how big rhe holes are on the new head but with the numbers matching to the digit I would imagine they are the same.

Afaik, the 12 x 1.25mm studs can be difficult to find so I suggest you try to clean it up if possible and re-use it.

Here's a U.S. parts supplier (I know, probably not much use to you in the U.K. ) that lists s/hand or refurbished studs, also the nut, they're 10.9 grade, (this will likely be stamped on them, otherwise they might only be the more common 8.8 grade), so hopefully you'll be able to obtain a couple from a U.K. supplier and also there's some special tools (the same as the original Fiat dealership tools) available for accessing the head bolts/nuts (they're a bit pricey for a one-off job but you could use the pics as a guide if you wanted to fabricate something similar yourself - you don't need all the sizes for one engine iirc, the 128 used the 2nd and 3rd tools).

And here's a Swiss parts supplier (a bit pricey, note - prices are in Swiss Francs) that lists a set of bolts, studs and nuts for the 128 engine :-

A while back, someone in the U.K. was on this forum looking for these 12 x 1.25mm studs, he couldn't find any so obtained 12 x 1.25mm bolts, cut off the heads and threaded the plain ends to make his own studs.

If the coolant pipe is steel, it should unscrew from the cyl. head but as I mentioned above (post #15) they can be very tight, There are special extractors for such pipes but I've always managed by inserting a bar, another pipe or the plain (shank) end of a close-fitting drill bit to prevent the pipe from being crushed and then using a pipegrips/visegrips/Stillsons wrench to unscrew the pipe stub. Heating the old cyl. head in the area around the pipe stub to expand the aluminium and hopefully break the bond of the pipe sealant originally used, may help.
I used to wrap a couple of turns of old-style emery tape around the pipe stub to try to protect it from the teeth of the pipe wrench and also prevent the pipe wrench from slipping.
If you don't insert something close-fitting into the pipe stub, it'll likely collapse as you apply force. I've even seen the pipe stub shear off due to being weakened by internal corrosion. I don't know if this pipe stub is available as a separate part, so be careful. Don't let your friend hit it with the axe!

Be careful about relying too much on the numbers on the cyl. head (and for that matter on the cyl. block), these are casting numbers, so what was subsequently done e.g. machining operations might vary.

As regards shimming the valves - easy enough if you have the factory tool (although I've seen some people use a screwdriver heated/bent to a similar shape!). E.g. :-