Technical head gasket

[phil_harry]

I have read the sticky on head gaskets and think im screwed.

Car has recently started being lumpy tickover when cold, and missfires at low revs, say, accelerating from 50mph in 5th gear.

Just checked under oil filler cap and have mayo

Is really annoying i cant see how it has happened as have always had pleanty of oil and water in it and has never been anywhere past 90 on the temperature gauge.

I had the same problem with my uno which had this engine, it sucks.

Phil

 

[rallycinq]

Back 17 paces. Have you lost any water? If all the water is still in the cooling system, then you have condensation. At water this time of year you will get water condensing on the meal components of the engine.

Has the oil level in the engine increased? If the water is leaking into the oil you will have more oil than before.

When was the last time the car was serviced?

Is the oil the correct grade for winter driving?

At this merry time don't assume the worse.

Cheers

D

 

[peaster2k]

IF its the headgasket will you be doing it yourself or getting a garage to? I got a quote from fiat for £364 and i was very shocked, that included all parts and labour for a headgasket replacement, new tensioner and cambelt as well. In the end i decided to do it myself with the help of Dj_bucho. In total i saved about £250, more than happy with it as well.

HTH

David

 

[philbo]

how far do you drive in the car? short journeys especially at this time of year can lead to mayo in the engine. so long as you take it for a good thrash every now and then it will be fine. frequent oil changes and keep an eye on the coolant level. as for the lumpy tickover, that could be damp leads or crap plugs or if you do only use it for short journeys then the plugs might be carboned up. my advice is to take it for a thrash and see if its any better. and i mean proper Tiff Needell type thrash! observing the speed limits of course.

merry xmas!

 

[joecinq]

I have got misfiring at the moment when accelerating from low revs, and its the coils.

The mayo as said above can be caused by condensation.

Hope its not too bad,

Joe

 

[DJ_Bucho]

In the end i decided to do it myself with the help of Dj_bucho.

I think you'll find it was more along the lines of,

DJ_Bucho was the saving grace and did a lot of the work , while I helped him out.

And without me you would have had to pay the garage to do the work.

 

[paul_treg]

Hi,
Could be condensation of moisture in the oil if you only do short or stop start journeys.

If the head gasket has gone, it does not realy have to have a symptom and sometimes goes without a reason, some people cook the engine with a blocked rad, jammed thermostat, dead fan etc, for others "**** happens" as they say, with a manufacturing defect from the head, block or gasket that could hold for many years without going pop.

When you think about it, there are about 50,000 components in a car, so if 0.01% of things were to go wrong, that would be 50 bits to fall off. We should be glad sometimes the things just work.

Paul T

 

[GhostWKD]

my head gasket went for no reason today, went to start car and it wouldnt start, so got jump leads out thinking it was flat battery, started after a min or so, sounded very lumpy, so peeked round the back of the car to see it smoking worse than a smoker having a pint (lol sorry quite bad ) , then stopped car and checked oil and coolant, oil in coolant and vice versa 1242 time

 

[philbo]

When you think about it, there are about 50,000 components in a car, so if 0.01% of things were to go wrong, that would be 50 bits to fall off. We should be glad sometimes the things just work.

Paul T

i work on jet airplanes. probly more like 50,000,000 bits which makes that statement so much scarier!! glad im not a pilot.

 

[phil_harry]

I have checked the coolant level, was just below the min so not too bad. Topped it up and am gonna see if it falls back down again.

The car was serviced just before i bought it in september (so i was told) but the clean colour of the oil and brand new ht leads told me at the time this was probably true.

i here what your saying about the mayonaise being caused by condensation, i never thought about that.

Will drive it around for a bit and keep a close eye on the coolant/temperature gauge and see what happens.

Thanks for your help

Phil

 

[Julio_Scorchio]

I think you'll find it was more along the lines of,

DJ_Bucho was the saving grace and did a lot of the work , while I helped him out.

And without me you would have had to pay the garage to do the work.

....and I DID get at least £250 worth of laughs at the 120 degree static advance setting............

Tosh

 

[phil_harry]

Right then!!

Have done a bit of diagnostics today and everything points towards a head gasket i think you will agree:

Did a quick compression test and 1 and 2 cylinders are lower than 3 and 4 by a few bar.

Oil leaking behind the engine, looks like behind 1 and 2 cylinder but cant really tell

no.1 spark plug covered in a brown deposit, no.2 half caked and 3 and 4 spark plugs fine

Coolant dropped about an 2cm below a marker pen line i drew on the expansion tank when running the car for 10 mins to warm it up for compression test.

Exhast like a smoke machine (clouds of white steam even when it was warm)

cleaned oil cap and was covered in mayo after 10 minute run, engine tappety and when it started it spat mayo out of oil breather pipe.

Im no expert but I think it points 99% towards a blown gasket.

Basically, i have the time and space and tools to do it myself but looking at the haynes manual, it dosent look that straightforward. I have my dad to help me but he last changed a head gasket 20 years ago on a triumph 2000, but he has also done it on an opel ascona and austin 1100.

What i need to know is if anyone who has attempted it before knows of any major pitfalls which a novice like myself is likely to encounter. Is there anything tricky that i should know about or be aware of which is not in the haynes?

Where is the best place to buy a gasket set, and are there any better gaskets available?

Do i need to get the head machined? My dad says he never did as he had cars with cast iron heads but the cinq has an alloy head so does it warp easily? I dont think it has ever overheated since i have owned it although the brand new radiator suggests it might have in the past.

Should i replace the head bolts?

Thanks for your help

Phil

 

[dawozere]

does seem to point to the head gasket matey.

the head bolts are 'stretch' bolts so they should always be replaced when doing the head gasket, also worth putting a new timing belt on it at the same time.

Its worth getting the head machined, its only a £200-ish job and if you don't know the history of the car you'll never know what temps its been running at.

As I remember it wasn't that bad a job to do, just very time consuming, but I did have a trained mechanic telling me what to do and helping out.

 

[peaster2k]

I was concerned about doing this the same way you are, after reading the Haynes and talking to people on and off here i felt more confident about the whole process. I thought that my head would need skimming but after talking to Tosh (julio_Scorchio) I realised that might not, as it turned out the head was fine and it went back on without being skimmed. But it would depend on your and you will only find this out when it is removed.

I bought a gasket set from fiat for about 30quid (IIRC) and that worked fine. I believe the haynes says disconnect the inlet manifold and the Throttle body. When mine was done the Throttle body was unbolted from the inlet manifold and held out the way with some bands after removing enough hoses to allow it to move freely. the head was removed with the Inlet manifold still connected, doing it this way saved fuel/water/oil getting everywhere.

Keep the same head bolts as long as they are in good condition, just make sure you do them up in the right order and to the correct Torque, 30NM (IIRC) on eahc bolt in turn and then one 90 degree turn on each bolt and then a final 90 degree turn on each bolt.

Its def worth replacing the Cambelt and Tensioner when doing this as you have to remove the cambelt and lossen off the tensioner. Reduces the chances of havnig to repeat the job in the short term.

HTH

David

 

[peaster2k]

....and I DID get at least £250 worth of laughs at the 120 degree static advance setting............

Tosh

sssshhhhh, We agreed this was going to be kept under wraps.

David

 

[phil_harry]

Right!

tomorrow the parts are being ordered and i my dad and i are going to take a leap of faith and attempt to start dismantling it.

Four out of five spanners in the haynes sounds harsh........

Phil

 

[GhostWKD]

if its anymore reassuring my car is in the garage at moment (spent all day clearing all the rubbish out of the way ) waiting for me to take the engine out tomorrow and put the punto engine in not sure how many spanners a engine swap is in haynes heh

good luck with the repair sure it'll come together in the end

 

[peaster2k]

Remember if your ever stuck ask someone on here, enough people have done it and should be able to answer any problems.

HTH

David

 

[Julio_Scorchio]

Right!

tomorrow the parts are being ordered and i my dad and i are going to take a leap of faith and attempt to start dismantling it.

Four out of five spanners in the haynes sounds harsh........

Phil

Phil
You shouldn't have any real bother if your Dad has done a Triumph 200 and an Ascona (lovely motor). Bear in mind that neither DJ_Bucho or Peaster had done one before but with the Haynes manual and a little advice they did a fab job on Dave's. I'm sure your Dad will be straight back into it no problem, but if there's any probs you know that anyone on here will help or offer advice all along the way.

Main points for me are:
a) I wouldn't skim the head. In my days of Hillman Imps it was normal to take 20thou off, whereas today they only take off a couple of thou. The head gasket will take up that much easily, so only skim the head if there are any major imperfections or grooves in it.
b) wire brush all the head bolts very carefully. Bear in mind that when the engine is put together the head bolts and bolt holes are all immaculate, whereas after a few thousand miles they will be mucky and resist the turn of the bolts, so cleanliness (and slipperyness) is good.
c) if you're having the head off, as Dave says, change the cambelt. It's much easier to do it while you're doing the head.
d) remember to smile a lot, especially as you consider the £250 you will be saving by doing it yourself.

Good luck.

Tosh

 

[arc]

Indeed. I changed my head gasket having not done anything major mechanically wise on anything at all. Haynes in hand, got through it. 5000miles later, shes running great as ever.

I got my head skimmed regardless, it only cost me £25 and the car had overheated in the past so i wanted to be sure. Also the place i took it to cleans the rest of the head when they skim it

I also spent around 4hours cleaning the block, and tops of the pistons. I used to think piston were flat, when i saw the marks on top near where the valves would be - it scared the poo outta me! If you want to clean up the tops of the pistons, i used a green pad scouring pad and neat RedX injector cleaner on there. Took a while, but its nice to know its all clean in there.. or was!

Its already been said, but ignore what haynes says about removing the inlet manifold before taking the head out - theres no need. On mine, i left both manifolds on. Just unbolted the exhaust from where it joined the down pipe. I removed them afterwards when i got the head skimmed, and i also painted them.

Any problems, or further questions - post, and im sure they'll be plenty of people around to help out. Good luck