Technical Grinding in Neutral After Chainging Drive Shaft

[SailorBob]

First, thanks to everyone for their time and suggestions. jackwoo actually is the closest guess.


Just to address the issue, there is no circlip on the inner joint splines on this vehicle. Not sure exactly what the retaining mechanism is, but I measured the depth of the oil seal and it bottoms out at 15mm, the oil seal portion of the shaft is about 23mm and when installed I measured about 8 - 9mm space, so the shaft was definitely in all the way.


I removed the axle and noticed the new outer CV joint seems oddly loose, play with it a little and realize it's almost completely off the axle! How can that be? I open the boot up, the joint slides right off as only the tip of the axle is in the joint and I see the Circlip is missing! I stick my finger up into the CV joint and find the clip is shoved up into the joint! Not sure how that happened. Apparently the grinding I was hearing was coming from the CV joint side, but I couldn't tell the difference because I was up in the cab and I just assumed it was from the gear. As far as I can figure however the circlip came off, the shaft worked it's way out of the CV joint and when I would smack it I was basically just knocking the end of the shaft back into the CV joint, but it would quickly work it's way out again...


Back to the CV joint, the new clip that came with the joint seemed a bit big, I tried pressing down the ends of the clip without success and just hammered the joint on. I checked and it's seemed snug before I installed the driveshaft... Crazy!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Another thought, are you 100 % sure the new cv joint is correctly fitted/locked on to the drive shaft ? If the splines of drive shaft are not fully inserted into cv joint problems ensue. Plus is new cv joint correct part if splined hole inside cv joint is too large the splines will strip off and there will be no drive- drive shaft will rotate inside cv joint wheels won't turn.

An outside possibility Jack? I mean the CV's splined hole being too big for the shaft splines to properly engage, I have seen that. I think you are wondering if the drive shaft has just not been properly seated into the joint? Then again "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" do they? I've seen the splines in a CV so badly stripped out that the car was sitting there stationary with gear engaged and driveshaft rotating but CV stationary. It's so often the "unlikely" possibility that catches us out! Sometimes there are production changes which mean the same model used different components during it's production run and that can give the parts people real problems.

 

[jackwhoo]

An outside possibility Jack? I mean the CV's splined hole being too big for the shaft splines to properly engage, I have seen that. I think you are wondering if the drive shaft has just not been properly seated into the joint? Then again "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" do they? I've seen the splines in a CV so badly stripped out that the car was sitting there stationary with gear engaged and driveshaft rotating but CV stationary. It's so often the "unlikely" possibility that catches us out! Sometimes there are production changes which mean the same model used different components during it's production run and that can give the parts people real problems.

Yes I was wondering if the new cv was not fully on the drive shaft.
Second thought was wrong cv joint-yes a very outside chance.

What relief the grinding was not the gearbox!!

Well done sailorbob thanks for updating us

 

[Anthony489]

OK, so the driveshaft CV joint had come apart inside which would definitely make a grinding noise when it was turning in gear.

So was it also turning (and grinding) in neutral due to oil drag ?

 

[SailorBob]

I'm pretty sure that's what was happening at this point. Getting ready to go try and fish the circlip out of the CV joint and see if I can get it all together correctly this time :bang:. I'll probably have to disassemble the joint, but maybe I'll get lucky.

 

[SailorBob]

Well, I took apart the joint and the circlip wasn't just shoved up in there, it was completely shattered. I attached a pic with the largest piece I found...

How the heck did that even happen? I thought these circlips were supposed to be almost indestructible...

 

[Anthony489]

Hi Sailorbob

That looks like a mess ! You might have to wash out the CV joint grease with white spirit or solvent to make sure there are no tiny metal particles lurking. If you have trouble sourcing the special grease (molybdenum ?) to replace it, it is sometimes sold together with replacement rubber boots as a repair kit.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well, I took apart the joint and the circlip wasn't just shoved up in there, it was completely shattered. I attached a pic with the largest piece I found...

How the heck did that even happen? I thought these circlips were supposed to be almost indestructible...

Definitely not indestructible Bob, I've seen this a number of times having worked a goodly portion of my career on BL products. In my experience they usually break during removal of the shaft so you quickly learn to look for the old circlip on the shaft as you withdraw it.

If you've never stripped a CV joint before here's a video showing you how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN388J0UVCc Sometimes they can "fight" you a wee bit but generally they are not bad to do. Take note of which way round the inner "spider" and cage are fitted, sometimes they only go one way otherwise they foul the shaft on full lock. Interestingly this joint has an alternative type of circlip which has to be spread with a flat bladed circlip pliers before the shaft can be separated from the joint. I think I prefer this type to our type where you just clout the joint to remove it.

PS. If you are buying a new boot then I can strongly recommend using a vehicle specific boot. The "universal" type do have their place in an emergency if you can't get an OE quality replacement but I would always try to get exactly the right one even if I had to buy from a main dealer - My Factor seems to stock OE model specific boots and universal so I don't have any problems with this and they definitely last longer.

It's important to use a grease intended for CV joints, but any high melting point lithium soap moly grease will do the job and is readily available, like this from Halfords: https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/lubricating-and-penetrating-oil/comma-cv-and-lith-moly-grease-500g-634949.html?istCompanyId=b8708c57-7a02-4cf6-b2c0-dc36b54a327e&istFeedId=367c5610-f937-4c81-8609-f84582324cd6&istItemId=rtqrx&istBid=t&_$ja=tsid:|cid:14297415498|agid:124576971583|tidla-1406062032956|crid:539302034289|nw:u|rnd:6624643378311165729|dvc:c|adp:|mt:|loc:9046884&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkbuKBhDRARIsAALysV5ssW3NYY0liYXbN8j8sewFBe2gs3QkCvv-Byt9yNKbN8oh2lwd6_oaApeFEALw_wcB It can also be used for lubing sliding and swiveling type joints but the general advice is not to use it in ball or roller bearings as it encourages the balls and rollers to "skid" on their races instead of rolling.

It's a nice "mucky" but quite satisfying job - enjoy!

 

[SailorBob]

Second thought was wrong cv joint-yes a very outside chance.

Yeah, your second thought was correct. Got the cv joint cleaned and reassembled and inserted the shaft and --- it was just barely able to rotate. The splines in the joint and on the shaft are just fine, the cv joint is just about 2mm diameter too big. Apparently it felt snug when I assembled it because of the circlip, but once I started driving the circlip must have sheared off which let the shaft rotate in the joint which was the grinding I was hearing. I think when I wacked it all I was doing was getting the shaft deep into the joint and maybe the splines where catching on the broken circlip inside...

Take a look and you can see what I'm talking about:

CV Joint Too Big


As I noted at the end of the video, kinda wanna shoot the parts guy :bang:

 

[jackwhoo]

Pugglt Auld Jock

OMG

Well done sailorbob for checking shaft/cv joint compatability after thinking it was just not fully inserted.

Thanks for videos and updates of diagnosis very helpful to know this type of failure is an option.

 

[SailorBob]

@Pugglt Auld Jock

OMG

Well done sailorbob for checking shaft/cv joint compatability after thinking it was just not fully inserted.

Thanks for videos and updates of diagnosis very helpful to know this type of failure is an option.

**POSTSCRIPT**

After speaking with the parts guy and giving him the VIN of my vehicle he double checked and said he was sure the CV Joint he gave me was the correct part and to check the history of the vehicle to see if the entire axle was ever changed in the past. I checked and in 2018 the driver's side axle was changed with a second hand part from a junk yard - which apparently fit but wasn't actually the correct part. :bang:

 

[SailorBob]

**POST-POSTSCRIPT**

So some further discussion with the parts guy revealed some additional detail.

The Ducato Short and the Ducato Maxi use almost identical half shafts, with the only difference being that the axle from the Maxi has slightly larger more heavy duty splines on the shaft. So if you change the entire shaft they are interchangeable, but the CV joint from one won't fit on the shaft for the other because of the different size splines.


So extrapolating, the previous owner probably got a second hand half shaft from a Ducato Short and put it in his ( my ) Ducato Maxi.


FIN.