Technical Flashing Engine Warning Light - new cat says the book? Just a hill and sludge say I!

[Stephen4444]

Hi,

Just serviced Crystal - my daughters 2013 Panda 1242 Pop.

She had said that it was starting to mis-fire, she needed to rev it hard and occasionally, when on tick-over and she put the clutch in the car would stall.

My drive is on a slight incline, down to a garage. I had the car ticking over until is was properly warm. Dropped the engine oil & oil filter. Then changed the spark plugs and air filter. Whilst I had the air filter box off the carb to get to the plugs I noticed some sludge on the butterfly valve. I didn't think anything of it, wiped it off and put the car back together. Sump plug in, oil filter back on and topped up the oil. Then tick over, recheck the oil. Then I backed Crystal out of the garage and left her ticking over for a minute or two - admiring my handiwork.

After a few minutes I got back in Crystal to reverse her off the drive, and she started missing, refusing to rev cleanly. Then the engine warning light started flashing. Panic. Back under the bonnet, pushing all the electrical connectors I could see in case it would miraculously clear the problem. Started her up again and she was alright. A minute later back to flashing orange engine warning light and a mis-fire.. Check the handbook - get the car checked at a dealers and suspect the cat needing replacing... Real panic, why has this happened now.

Turned the car off and walked round her. Noticed a damp patch at the rear - out of the exhaust and a few damp patches underneath.. On closer inspection there was also water dripping from the rear exhaust back box and the exhaust pipe where it goes 'up and over' the rear axle. I wonder.....

Nothing to lose and started the car up, with it missing and the dash light flashing managed to get her to reverse off the drive, turned it round and reversed it onto the drive. After a minute or so, Orange flashing light goes out and no mis-fire...

I am convinced that there was a build up of water in the exhaust (water is a product of combustion) which had managed to flow down to the cat and upset it. I think the fact the car was 'ticking over' with exhaust gases under minimum pressure to come out the rear and not being driven at speed has meant the water ran up the exhaust!

As I had this problem I did also wonder about the sludge on the butterfly valve in the carb. I took the breather pipe from the rocker cover off and also took it off the air box. Then i managed to work rags down it and eventually cleaned out all the sludge. I also did the same in the air box.

I am confident that I have cleared the problem my daughter was having now. The car doesn't need a cat. The head gasket isn't beginning to go (no sludge in the oil, on the dipstick or on the oil filler cap - or the engine side of where the breather pipe connected) and the coolant is still clear. The car has had five years of stop start town driving and round to her mates and back (it's done under 20,000 miles from new).

Just thought it was worth mentioning as I believe that the sludge was beginning to get into the carb and causing the mis-fire. I wonder how many people take the breather pipe off and clean it thoroughly when they service a car? I can't remember ever doing so previously!

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
Give the throttle body (inside) the flap and its bore a good clean with carburettor cleaner spray or brake cleaner spray if you can't get hold of it. Make sure there is no gunge in the pipework from the airbox to the throttle body, if so clean it out with a rag and petrol. Consider an oil catch tank. Also take out the MAP sensor guaranteed its covered in oil, wash it out and ask your Fiat dealer to adjust the software to compensate for oil contamination on the sensor. I'd also fit Iridium plugs, check the plug leads for condition likewise the coil pack for cracks and dirt build up.
Give it an Italian tune up every now and again and change the oil and filter twice a year.
My 1.2 has been transformed by doing this.

 

[Putty John]

Hi.
Give the throttle body (inside) the flap and its bore a good clean with carburettor cleaner spray or brake cleaner spray if you can't get hold of it. Make sure there is no gunge in the pipework from the airbox to the throttle body, if so clean it out with a rag and petrol. Consider an oil catch tank. Also take out the MAP sensor guaranteed its covered in oil, wash it out and ask your Fiat dealer to adjust the software to compensate for oil contamination on the sensor. I'd also fit Iridium plugs, check the plug leads for condition likewise the coil pack for cracks and dirt build up.
Give it an Italian tune up every now and again and change the oil and filter twice a year.
My 1.2 has been transformed by doing this.

Just to add to the importance of cleaning of the MAP sensor
I have a Vectra 2.2DTI and was having no end of problems with the engine management light coming on & off after much forum reading, out with the MAP sensor full of dirty oil quick clean with carb cleaner, light never been back on so far fingers crossed

 

[g8rpi]

Hi.
Give the throttle body (inside) the flap and its bore a good clean with carburettor cleaner spray or brake cleaner spray if you can't get hold of it. Make sure there is no gunge in the pipework from the airbox to the throttle body, if so clean it out with a rag and petrol. Consider an oil catch tank. Also take out the MAP sensor guaranteed its covered in oil, wash it out and ask your Fiat dealer to adjust the software to compensate for oil contamination on the sensor. I'd also fit Iridium plugs, check the plug leads for condition likewise the coil pack for cracks and dirt build up.
Give it an Italian tune up every now and again and change the oil and filter twice a year.
My 1.2 has been transformed by doing this.

Change the oil and filter twice a year??? How many miles are you doing?
That is total overkill and wasteful. Definitely not applicable to OP who is averaging less than 5000 miles a year. Quality oil every other year would be more than enough for that car.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[murphyv310]

Each to their own Robert.
Oil gets contamination especially on short runs when the engine often doesn't reach operating temperature. The catch tank collects an fair amount of water so this condensation is lurking around the sump. Remember that oil may not reach 100c to boil off water. I use my waste oil on fences and shed so its not thrown away.
I'll be sticking to bi annual changes, surely Fiat have a timed service of a year irrespective of mileage anyway?

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
Looking at the service intervals recommended by Fiat it was reduced in 2015 from 24 months to 12. A two year service is nuts and asking for trouble. As my annual mileage is under 3000 and often only a couple of miles at a time I consider that the oil is not good after a few months. I'd really think it better to replace it more often than having a sludged up engine. Again everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[ADRIAN22]

First thing as mentioned earlier get a oil catch can, I fitted one to wife 500 and after only less than a thousand miles of just daily going to shops there was 160ml of oil and water. The great amount was water, a can is defo worth it.

Secondly the amount of water mentioned above is rotting your exhaust as you say it is dripping water.

I would fit a catch can and modify it as shown on youtube to make it more efficient, then when fitted ,get a Stainless Steel exhaust made up from such as Power Flow.

All above is a recomendation only if you intend keeping car for a while

Ade:wave:

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
The picture is of the Catch tank I fitted some months ago, it is now properly mounted and the hoses tidy.
It regularly catches a fair amount of water and more so in this cold weather when the engine takes longer to warm up.
The reason for this water is by condensation in the sump area and of course in the head spaces that will drip into the sump as the oil runs back to the sump in the normal way. There is always some products of combustion that find their way back to the sump, it's virtually impossible to get piston rings to seal 100% so this is inevitable.
The big snag no matter what oil you use, Whether Mineral or Synthetic is the reaction between the oil and water, as the oil heats and cools it gets sludge building up.
Here is one of many articles that contain some info https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/motor-oil/articles/why-motor-oil-deteriorates/
https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/entry/mixing_oil_and_water
There are other articles that explain the process in detail that show how the chemical structure of the oil changes with water contamination, its not just as simple as emulsification but far worse.
I have been bitten before buying a low mileage car that only had an oil change every two years, at 43,000 miles this 12 year old car had a totally worn out engine and seeing what came out of the sump after an oil change when i bought it then no wonder.
Look at the inside of the head on a car that is high mileage and serviced properly then at the low mileage one doing 3000 or less miles a year with an oil change once every two years, they are like night and day.

When I change my oil there is always about 40 or 50 ML water in the bottom of the drain pan, that's water that hasn't actually contaminated the oil, no doubt it does as the oil circulates and is returned to the sump.
Oh and the engine never has needed a drop of coolant since I've had it.

 

[Putty John]

Hi.
The picture is of the Catch tank I fitted some months ago, it is now properly mounted and the hoses tidy.
It regularly catches a fair amount of water and more so in this cold weather when the engine takes longer to warm up.



I have never in 45 years of having a car come across a catch can!
I'm now intrigued, why did you fit one with a filter as opposed to one with out? do you have to manually empty it? what is inside? I've searched but no answer to my question. Thank you.

 

[murphyv310]

Its an oil catch tank. It is between the breather outlet on the cam cover and the air filter box just prior to the throttle body. Its main purpose is to allow oil and water to collect in the can rather than suck it into the inlet manifold and engine. The water and oil drawn into the engine is sticky and can gum up the throttle body and flap, it adheres to the MAP sensor and is known to carbonize the backs of the inlet valves. It also reduces other nasties. Google "Oil catch tank" plenty on there, its a common fitment on VW Golf GTI's mk5 & 6 and many other cars. The tank is hollow with a drain plug on the bottom, the filter allows the engine to suck a little outside air to balance the system and allow the deposits to drip into the can with less chance of being drawn into the inlet tract.
Hope this helps.


Oh and it doesn't effect the MOT mine passed a couple of weeks ago and emissions were spot on.

 

[tiagoadcosta]

Hi.
The picture is of the Catch tank I fitted some months ago, it is now properly mounted and the hoses tidy.
It regularly catches a fair amount of water and more so in this cold weather when the engine takes longer to warm up.
The reason for this water is by condensation in the sump area and of course in the head spaces that will drip into the sump as the oil runs back to the sump in the normal way. There is always some products of combustion that find their way back to the sump, it's virtually impossible to get piston rings to seal 100% so this is inevitable.
The big snag no matter what oil you use, Whether Mineral or Synthetic is the reaction between the oil and water, as the oil heats and cools it gets sludge building up.
Here is one of many articles that contain some info https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/motor-oil/articles/why-motor-oil-deteriorates/
https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/entry/mixing_oil_and_water
There are other articles that explain the process in detail that show how the chemical structure of the oil changes with water contamination, its not just as simple as emulsification but far worse.
I have been bitten before buying a low mileage car that only had an oil change every two years, at 43,000 miles this 12 year old car had a totally worn out engine and seeing what came out of the sump after an oil change when i bought it then no wonder.
Look at the inside of the head on a car that is high mileage and serviced properly then at the low mileage one doing 3000 or less miles a year with an oil change once every two years, they are like night and day.

When I change my oil there is always about 40 or 50 ML water in the bottom of the drain pan, that's water that hasn't actually contaminated the oil, no doubt it does as the oil circulates and is returned to the sump.
Oh and the engine never has needed a drop of coolant since I've had it.

Nice install! what's the capacity of that catch can?