Technical Fiat Ducato 2018 2.3 Engine knocking

[RichP]

Hi, I’m wondering if anyone has any ideas or advice as it seems our van has failed catastrophically after 7 years ownership from new.
It’s only done 19k miles, mostly long journeys. Never had any issues, serviced 3 times and belts changed at 5 years.
On our way home from Devon a couple weeks ago the engine developed a knocking noise , only really noticeable at idle. No warning lights, van drives well still with no loss of power. Oil level fine. On the journey there was a metallic clanking noise from under the front of the van which my wife and I thought was something hitting underside but in hindsight maybe not?
It’s in Adams Morey Fiat Professional Portsmouth currently.
They don’t know what’s causing the knock, taking the sump off revealed nothing. I presume their diagnostic equipment can’t diagnose the problem.
Have been advised over the phone it may be just as well to go for a new engine due to labour costs involved in further investigation!
I’m currently awaiting an email with the estimated cost of this.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi, I’m wondering if anyone has any ideas or advice as it seems our van has failed catastrophically after 7 years ownership from new.
It’s only done 19k miles, mostly long journeys. Never had any issues, serviced 3 times and belts changed at 5 years.
On our way home from Devon a couple weeks ago the engine developed a knocking noise , only really noticeable at idle. No warning lights, van drives well still with no loss of power. Oil level fine. On the journey there was a metallic clanking noise from under the front of the van which my wife and I thought was something hitting underside but in hindsight maybe not?
It’s in Adams Morey Fiat Professional Portsmouth currently.
They don’t know what’s causing the knock, taking the sump off revealed nothing. I presume their diagnostic equipment can’t diagnose the problem.
Have been advised over the phone it may be just as well to go for a new engine due to labour costs involved in further investigation!
I’m currently awaiting an email with the estimated cost of this.

Wow! At 19,000 miles, that's terrible. If regularly serviced I would want to see around 200k miles on commercial van engine at least.
The older Sofim 2.8s if looked after could do 500,000 miles, one of mine was at 257,000 when I sold it and still running happily, all well over 100k miles.
Several years ago I bought a ELWB Iveco Daily parcel van with your 2.3 engine in at auction for around £1100. inc Vat, it came with a receipt for around £5k for a genuine engine replacement from the Dealers, I should imagine yours will be well in excess of that, which is frightening.
No one seems to rebuild engines anymore.

 

[RichP]

Wow! At 19,000 miles, that's terrible. If regularly serviced I would want to see around 200k miles on commercial van engine at least.
The older Sofim 2.8s if looked after could do 500,000 miles, one of mine was at 257,000 when I sold it and still running happily, all well over 100k miles.
Several years ago I bought a ELWB Iveco Daily parcel van with your 2.3 engine in at auction for around £1100. inc Vat, it came with a receipt for around £5k for a genuine engine replacement from the Dealers, I should imagine yours will be well in excess of that, which is frightening.
No one seems to rebuild engines anymore.

Yes, I’m waiting for a cost estimate. I imagine the one you bought with replacement engine had done significantly more miles than mine..

 

[bugsymike]

Yes, I’m waiting for a cost estimate. I imagine the one you bought with replacement engine had done significantly more miles than mine..

From memory and it was several years ago the engine had managed 170k miles as a parcel delivery van before replacement. So yours at 19k is pretty poor.
The replacement engine job had been done at the Iveco Main Dealers, I was just happy to buy the vehicle for £1100 odd with a recent invoice of £5k for the engine job, not sure if that is why the company had gone bust.
I loved my Ivecos but with a seperate steel chassis and capable of a gross weight of 3.5 tonne and able to tow the same 3.5 tonne legally on a trailer I found my 2.8s would only manage 24mpg on average, though that 2.3 would get 28mpg, but to me I still preferred the older engine for it's low down pulling power.

 

[Kahcorp]

From this forum I see that Adams Morey are your go to for Fiat. With them taking the sump off they must have thought the noise was bottom end. You can investigate a lot with the sump off, big end caps removed and checking movement etc.
If I found nothing after removing the sump then there would be no way I would be replacing the engine. I do rebuild engines so I have seen a lot.
If bottom end noise your issue could be clutch, flywheel, harmonic balancer etc. but surely this was all checked with bottom end investigation.
You say it is there at idle. These are usually one of the easiest problem to nail down.
I had a vehicle (not Fiat) 6 years old 35,000km (22,000miles). Had a noise that no-one could locate the source of. Lots of codes including cam timing & others, ran really rough.
I found the Flywheel was loose. No Loctite on the bolts. I got crank drilled & threaded and all was good. The car is still going strong 7 years later.
Good luck with yours.

 

[bugsymike]

. Had a noise that no-one could locate the source of. Lots of codes including cam timing & others, ran really rough.
I found the Flywheel was loose. No Loctite on the bolts. I got crank drilled & threaded and all was good. The car is still going strong 7 years later.
Good luck with yours.

Many years ago I bought a Peugeot 504 Family Estate automatic cheap because of a knock.
Got it home , took starter out for access redid the four torque convertor bolts with Loctite, perfect.

 

[RichP]

From this forum I see that Adams Morey are your go to for Fiat. With them taking the sump off they must have thought the noise was bottom end. You can investigate a lot with the sump off, big end caps removed and checking movement etc.
If I found nothing after removing the sump then there would be no way I would be replacing the engine. I do rebuild engines so I have seen a lot.
If bottom end noise your issue could be clutch, flywheel, harmonic balancer etc. but surely this was all checked with bottom end investigation.
You say it is there at idle. These are usually one of the easiest problem to nail down.
I had a vehicle (not Fiat) 6 years old 35,000km (22,000miles). Had a noise that no-one could locate the source of. Lots of codes including cam timing & others, ran really rough.
I found the Flywheel was loose. No Loctite on the bolts. I got crank drilled & threaded and all was good. The car is still going strong 7 years later.
Good luck with yours.

They found nothing with the sump removed - nothing in the oil. No warning lights or codes. The van runs as good as always, no loss in performance, can’t really hear the knock when going along. It’s only really noticeable at idle. When first starting the van up from cold the knock is not there or barely perceptible. After a few seconds of the engine getting going the knock kicks in, very noticeable at idle. They are pretty certain it’s coming from inside the engine. The service manager said it may be piston slap, maybe why it doesn’t kick in when the engine’s totally cold?

 

[bugsymike]

They found nothing with the sump removed - nothing in the oil. No warning lights or codes. The van runs as good as always, no loss in performance, can’t really hear the knock when going along. It’s only really noticeable at idle. When first starting the van up from cold the knock is not there or barely perceptible. After a few seconds of the engine getting going the knock kicks in, very noticeable at idle. They are pretty certain it’s coming from inside the engine. The service manager said it may be piston slap, maybe why it doesn’t kick in when the engine’s totally cold?

Not up the top end like hydraulic tappets?

 

[RichP]

From memory and it was several years ago the engine had managed 170k miles as a parcel delivery van before replacement. So yours at 19k is pretty poor.
The replacement engine job had been done at the Iveco Main Dealers, I was just happy to buy the vehicle for £1100 odd with a recent invoice of £5k for the engine job, not sure if that is why the company had gone bust.
I loved my Ivecos but with a seperate steel chassis and capable of a gross weight of 3.5 tonne and able to tow the same 3.5 tonne legally on a trailer I found my 2.8s would only manage 24mpg on average, though that 2.3 would get 28mpg, but to me I still preferred the older engine for it's low down pulling power.

A new engine fitted would be around £15k - let’s hope it doesn’t come to that! I was getting around 33mpg I think from the van

 

[RichP]

Not up the top end like hydraulic tappets?

I don’t know- just relying on their checks and diagnostics at the moment. I am wondering whether it would be better to take it to an independent garage- I’ve had several recommendations. Perhaps they’d be keener to find out what’s actually wrong.

 

[bugsymike]

A new engine fitted would be around £15k - let’s hope it doesn’t come to that! I was getting around 33mpg I think from the van

Ouch.
Yes Ducato are much better on fuel than same engine in a heavier Iveco , but Iveco used to say their vans were derived from lorries unlike most manufacturers whose vans came from cars
Iveco has a seperate chassis , Ducato are monocoque, the body is the chassis in effect, to the point that I had a customer with a Ducato Maxi van that before every MOT I had to have a new windscreen fitted due to the body flexing so much it cracked the windscreens almost soon after Mot. Most modern cars rely on the bonded in windscreen for part of the integrity.

 

[bugsymike]

I don’t know- just relying on their checks and diagnostics at the moment. I am wondering whether it would be better to take it to an independent garage- I’ve had several recommendations. Perhaps they’d be keener to find out what’s actually wrong.

When engine is knocking can you use a stethoscope or a long screwdriver to your ear to locate the sound?

 

[RichP]

When engine is knocking can you use a stethoscope or a long screwdriver to your ear to locate the sound?

I haven’t tried - the garage has the van at the moment, something else to ask them!

 

[bugsymike]

I haven’t tried - the garage has the van at the moment, something else to ask them!

Garages love advice from customers,,, not.

 

[jackwhoo]

Two part Crank pulley with rubber damper can often be source of knocking at idle .
Can sound really bad / terminal but with new crank pulley all better (-: